MTR or DAW ?

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MrSounds

MrSounds

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First off, it must be stated that I'm VERY new to this and don't have any equipment yet except a Yamaha MG 10/2 mixer lol. So be patient with me please. You were all new at one point.. I been reading on this forum and I have alot to learn I can see, but with your help I believe I can succeed in my knowledge.

Now after doing a little homework, I see more people are using DAW's (Digital Audio Workstation) today; I'm told however that MTR's today are simpler and with current technology they actually adjust the levels of the preamps of the mic placement for you, so there is no more "screwing around to get your mic placement just right". It sounds sweet and all, but before I go and blow $1500 on a unit package, I want to be sure I'm getting a quality sound. I'm sure I can get a studio setup for under that much, but I want quality; my concern is quality!

Let me here your feedback please. When recording music in your home recording studio, do you use a Multitrack digital recorder (MTR) or a DAW and why? I was looking to buy the Boss BR1600CD complete pkg, but I want to know if the quality from a DAW is better than a digital recorder and why? What are the advantages and disadvantages between a MTR and a DAW besides money? Can you be specific? Your advice is welcomed greatly if you know anything about the difference between these two?

The features of the MTR I'm looking to buy has this:

Built-in drum sequencer insures you can do all your work without an external sequencer.
40GB hard drive and CD-R/RW drive
16-track (256 V-Track)
16 individual Track EQs, plus 8 dedicated compressors
8 XLR inputs
phantom power
Roland's acclaimed mic modeling
Auto-Calibrate that sets all input levels automatically
Vocal Tool Box with auto pitch correction and Harmony Sequence function
Internal preamps, effects, guitar boxes, drum machines, samplers and modules
Complete Connectivity with USB and V-LINK
and more:

Here is the link
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BOS-BR1600CD-LIST

Thank you guys for your patients with a noob :O)
 
Either way, you're still going to have to experiment and get your mic placement just right. There's no machine that can fix an incorrectly placed mic.
 
True, I know three main positions to place the mic in. 1) Between the 17th and the 21st fret (fret board) Less pic and bass. 2) In front of the sound hole for more bass and 3) between the bridge and the sound hole for more pic sound. After so one can screw around with range, as in the distance of the mic from the guitar. I'm sure I will buy a SM57 probably for this.

But what about the MTR or DAW?
 
I think with using a DAW, you have more options as far as what mic preamps, ad/da converters, interfaces you want to use. I'm not sure how good the preamps and ad/da converters are on the MTR you're looking at. There may also be a lot more ease of editing, and more effects plugins available with using a DAW.
 
I've never been able to figure out whether or not the BR1600 actually records at 24bit.
Here's the specs...
Signal Processing
AD Conversion:24 bit, AF Method (Guitar/Bass), 24 bit, △Σ Modulation (VOCAL, MULTI-TRACK, STEREO TRACKS)
DA Conversion: 24 bit, △Σ Modulation
Internal Processing: 24 bit (digital mixer section)
Recording Data:16 bit linear
Click to expand...
... maybe someone can clear that up for me.
Hi Mr. Sounds. (If that's your real name):)
I happen to embrace both technologies. I've spent a couple of years learning how to record with computer based DAWs and rebuilding computers. I finally gave in and bought the Korg D3200. I love it for it's preamps and flawless recording ability and immediately transfer my files over to the PC where I can edit in less than half the time and virtually no eye strain. I wonder what drew you to that particular Stand Alone. Was it the Price? I swear by the Korg but I almost bought the Tascam Neo. I would have been happy with either really.
Before you spend your money though, maybe check out the Zoom R16 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/600773-REG/Zoom_R16_R16_Multi_Track_Recorder.html All of the same features at 24 bit, also serves as an interface and control surface for computer based DAWs and for $800 less.
If I was starting again, I'd be on this one.
Best of Luck with your endeavours.
 
Jim Lad said:
I've never been able to figure out whether or not the BR1600 actually records at 24bit.
Here's the specs...
... maybe someone can clear that up for me.
Hi Mr. Sounds. (If that's your real name):)
I happen to embrace both technologies. I've spent a couple of years learning how to record with computer based DAWs and rebuilding computers. I finally gave in and bought the Korg D3200. I love it for it's preamps and flawless recording ability and immediately transfer my files over to the PC where I can edit in less than half the time and virtually no eye strain. I wonder what drew you to that particular Stand Alone. Was it the Price? I swear by the Korg but I almost bought the Tascam Neo. I would have been happy with either really.
Before you spend your money though, maybe check out the Zoom R16 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/600773-REG/Zoom_R16_R16_Multi_Track_Recorder.html All of the same features at 24 bit, also serves as an interface and control surface for computer based DAWs and for $800 less.
If I was starting again, I'd be on this one.
Best of Luck with your endeavours.
Click to expand...


Hey Jim thanks for replying to my thread..

The DAW setup

I'm not illiterate when it comes to computers, so let's start there

1) The CPU: (processor) would be the heart of the studio, because it's the speed of the CPU that ultimately dictates how well a program runs on it. So I will want the fastest processor that I can afford. And for most audio software you need a Pentium IV or G4 for Mac, or I could go even with Intel Core 2 Duos. And it's also best to use a computer just for this studio because if I run any other software including games (Call of Duty, Delta Force etc). It can cause problems with my audio application!

Common sense right?

2) Memory: Audio programs and all the associated plug-ins are RAM (Random-access memory) drainers. Meaning they drain the memory from the computer (RAM/CPU). And how much RAM I need would depend on my recording style right? I mean if I want a lot of audio tracks and want reverb or some other effects on my track(s), I will need more RAM and a faster CPU. I'm sure that 256MB is the minimum of amount of RAM to use? Is that true? So to make it run more smoothly I should go with 512MG of RAM? And 512mb is absolutely nothing! 8 gigs would be better :O)

3) Hard Drives: As in plural (2), it would seem logical or best, to have two hard drives if I want to record more then just a few tracks of audio. I believe I should use one hard drive for all my software and the operating system, and the other drive for the audio data, therefore my system remains stable and won't crash, especially if I try to run 16 or more tracks right? I'm pretty sure I can get by with a 10GB drive for the audio drive but from downloading audio data I know that 20GB would be ideal because of all the space audio data uses. For example a five minute song with 16 tracks recorded at 24 bits is about 600MB of hardspace that comes out to 7.5MB per track minute whoa! I might as well go with 500BG and call it a day.

So for me, this setup will cost me more I think, I could find a system with all of this for around $1200 (maybe a little more/less). I will need to buy another computer all together; I use this one here for my financial budgets, games for my daughter etc. which takes up alot of memory already. And yet I would have not even bought a single microphone yet!

So after I posted this question here about MTR and DAW's. I really began to think, and I figured it comes down to and would really depend on the person and what they are recording, how they are recording, what effects will they be using, how many tracks will they be recording etc.. And I think for me the ideal is the MTR (SIAB) Studio in a box, because for $1495 I can get everything I need; a recorder, powered monitors, mic, mic stand, head phones, cables and a 40GB hardrive, built in drum macine and a compressor, Wow! And I don't have to waste more time trying to set everything stand alone equipment. My ultimate goal is to record music, not screw around with the setup all day.

So does this seem about right? Or has this old man fallen off his rocker? Like I said I'm new to the recording business.
 
Sorry Jim, to answer your question why I am consider the BR1600 is because of all the stuff it comes with.

1. Amp Modeling and a Vocal Tool Box (Vocal pitch plus back up vocals) lets you instantly create realistic vocal harmonies by telling the BR what intervals you want, for those of us who can't sing
2. PCM drum and bass tracks - I don't have a drum kit, so I would need a drum machine
3. CD-R/RW drive and USB portand
4. Auto-Calibrate that sets all input levels automatically
5. USB port for easy data exchange, plus V-LINK video control
6. Mastering Tool Kit with multi-band compression for loud and punchy CDs
7. The built-in drum sequencer insures you can do all your work without an external sequencer.
8. Comes loaded with preamps, effects, guitar boxes, drum machines, samplers and modules

Guitar/Bass: 24 bit, AF Method
Vocal: 24 bit, Delta Sigma Modulation
Multi-Track: 24 bit, Delta Sigma Modulation
Stereo Tracks: 24 bit, Delta Sigma Modulation

24 bit, Delta Sigma Modulation
Internal Processing: 24 bit (digital mixer section)
Recording Data: 16 bit linear
 
Okay:
So I gather you're a reader and like to study things well in advance.
Fair enough. In a perfect world, computers don't crash and vocal harmonizers do sound real. In a perfect world.
However; What I said earlier about learning DAWs and rebuilding PCs was actually tongue in cheek. I didn't set out to rebuild PCs but I ended up having to.
Having your computer offline is the way to go but recording on them is still a real workout for the machine..
Editing on a Mac or PC is most definitely in line with what those machines were designed to do.
Recorders however, were designed to record and nothing does it better.
Editing on a stand alone recorder is extremely taxing and although many users do come up with perfect results, the computer is just so much easier.
It just makes good sense to me to use both tools for the parts that they do well.
I think (and I could be wrong) that the BR 1600 records at 16 bit and processes at 24. If I am correct, the recorder falls short of your requirements.
I'd have a look at the other three I mentioned.
Have fun with it.
 
Sounds good Jim, so let me understand you here. I could use a System in a box (SIAB) - Multitrack Recorder - for all my recording, but then you recommend that I MIDI that into the computer for editing purposes? Sounds logical.

I have a CD (won't say how I got my hands on it) that has many applications installed on it. Cakewalk, Cubase, Sony Acid (Acid pro 4), Reaper, Sibelius 3, and FL Studio. I know Pro Tools is the one everyone uses, but if I'm just editing, I won't need all the fancy stuff that comes with Pro Tools I'm thinking? So what program is great for edititng?

Jim, I will have to research another one of those SIAB that you mentioned, I'm hoping I could find one with a package deal (Monitors, mic, mic stand) etc.

You are being a big help to me my friend.. Thank you
 
No, not midi... they usually use USB, SD cards, Rewritable Cd's or drag and drop files.
My best suggestion to you would be the Zoom R16.
A much cheaper route than buying your first choice plus an audio interface plus a DAW.
It's an all in one that won't blow your budget and I'll check but I'm pretty sure it comes with software. I checked . No mention of software but a quick search will tell you which DAWs are compatible.

As for your disc. I have nothing against "Try before you buy" just as long as a person actually buys what he/she uses.
Somebody put a lot of work into creating the software. They've earned it.
 
Jim Lad said:
No, not midi... they usually use USB, SD cards, Rewritable Cd's or drag and drop files.
My best suggestion to you would be the Zoom R16.
A much cheaper route than buying your first choice plus an audio interface plus a DAW.
It's an all in one that won't blow your budget and I'll check but I'm pretty sure it comes with software. I checked . No mention of software but a quick search will tell you which DAWs are compatible.

As for your disc. I have nothing against "Try before you buy" just as long as a person actually buys what he/she uses.
Somebody put a lot of work into creating the software. They've earned it.
Click to expand...

The Zoom R16 comes bundled with Cubase LE.

I'll second the recommendation for the Zoom. I love mine.:cool:
 
Well,
You've picked up several of the right ideas, but your reasoning is a little off. Won't go into it, just know there's always more to learn, so don't stop reading.

I just built a computer for around $750 that absolutely screams. I record and edit on it, and I haven't had a single problem. Of course, I did a lot of research before I bought it - checked and double checked that I knew exactly why I was buying each piece of hardware and that, as far as I could gather, the whole system would work together. Maybe a little extra work, but I certainly didn't have to pay anywhere near $1200 for an absolutely fantastic recording computer. In fact, The cost of my computer and my interface together was around $1200 - and they're gonna do everything your all-in-one recorder is gonna do, plus more.

Don't go mentioning illicit cd's with free recording software on them. Don't ask questions about said software when it doesn't work on your computer and you can't go to the manufacturer because you didn't pay for it. That's the quickest way to get banned from this site. Factor the cost of a DAW into your budget.
That being said, Reaper is free to try the full version, it never expires, and it only costs about $60 to buy the license when you start to feel guilty about the incredible use you are getting out of it.:D And whichever program you go with, read the manual. At this point, the big boys all do almost all the same things, it's just a matter of knowing how to make them behave. The manual will tell you exactly this.

Your misuse of a couple of terms tells me you've done some cursory reading on the related subjects, but that you still have a lot more to learn. That isn't a dig, just an observation. Believe me, you've done a lot more research already than most.
Here's a website that, if you get through the entire tutorial (which is not too hard, the author keeps it light and interesting), you will be able to answer all your questions for yourself:
www.tweakheadz.com
Can't say enough good things about that site as an introduction to the whole process of recording.

I've heard it said enough times by enough people who know what they're doing to believe it:
Recording is an art in and of itself, and you won't finish learning new things about it until you're dead.

So, all that being said, my advice (coming from a place of inexperience and generally unconsidered) is to just get something cheap and start recording. You can read every bit of information that's been written down anywhere about the process of recording, you can buy the best most expensive equipment, and you'll still be an absolute newb until you can make music that sounds good. And you won't do that with fabulous equipment until you can do it with junky stuff.
Good luck, and have fun.
 
The Cancers said:
Well,
You've picked up several of the right ideas, but your reasoning is a little off. Won't go into it, just know there's always more to learn, so don't stop reading.

I just built a computer for around $750 that absolutely screams. I record and edit on it, and I haven't had a single problem. Of course, I did a lot of research before I bought it - checked and double checked that I knew exactly why I was buying each piece of hardware and that, as far as I could gather, the whole system would work together. Maybe a little extra work, but I certainly didn't have to pay anywhere near $1200 for an absolutely fantastic recording computer. In fact, The cost of my computer and my interface together was around $1200 - and they're gonna do everything your all-in-one recorder is gonna do, plus more.

Don't go mentioning illicit cd's with free recording software on them. Don't ask questions about said software when it doesn't work on your computer and you can't go to the manufacturer because you didn't pay for it. That's the quickest way to get banned from this site. Factor the cost of a DAW into your budget.
That being said, Reaper is free to try the full version, it never expires, and it only costs about $60 to buy the license when you start to feel guilty about the incredible use you are getting out of it.:D And whichever program you go with, read the manual. At this point, the big boys all do almost all the same things, it's just a matter of knowing how to make them behave. The manual will tell you exactly this.

Your misuse of a couple of terms tells me you've done some cursory reading on the related subjects, but that you still have a lot more to learn. That isn't a dig, just an observation. Believe me, you've done a lot more research already than most.
Here's a website that, if you get through the entire tutorial (which is not too hard, the author keeps it light and interesting), you will be able to answer all your questions for yourself:
www.tweakheadz.com
Can't say enough good things about that site as an introduction to the whole process of recording.

I've heard it said enough times by enough people who know what they're doing to believe it:
Recording is an art in and of itself, and you won't finish learning new things about it until you're dead.

So, all that being said, my advice (coming from a place of inexperience and generally unconsidered) is to just get something cheap and start recording. You can read every bit of information that's been written down anywhere about the process of recording, you can buy the best most expensive equipment, and you'll still be an absolute newb until you can make music that sounds good. And you won't do that with fabulous equipment until you can do it with junky stuff.
Good luck, and have fun.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your advice that is awesome and some good pointers here. Of course I am trying to study and learn as much as possible before I go and blow money on ANY system. I want to know what works for some people and what works for others. And myself trying to find a middle ground. I like how Jim said it best "I happen to embrace both technologies."

As far as the software programs I have, I have the registry key for them all, they were not stolen or "illicit" CD's. They came all loaded onto one CD which is very rare to find. If I need tech support, I have no problem contacting them, they just better not charge me $80 per call LMAO! But of these programs I have, I wanted to know what of these programs works best for editing?? And editing alone, which is why I mentioned it..

I've tried the free Reaper before I got this CD that everyone is always talking about, there is nothing free about it, maybe at one time it was free. The demo version is what you get when you download it now and only for 30 days, and you can not save any files until you purchase the license. When I first downloaded the application and every time I opened it up. I got a popup that say's "REAPER IS NOT FREE.. Import license" and it takes you to their web site to purchase it. -shrugs-
 
Here is a Reaper Screen Shot

reaper.jpg
 
Here is my personal advice. Start small. Get an inexpensive (not the same as cheap) USB or FIREWIRE interface, a few decent mics, and use the software that comes with the interface. If you like recording as a hobby, invest more. I would recommend you avoid all of those mic and amp sims until you know how to acheive the sounds on your own. You can get bundled hardware/software from guitar center and musicians friend. These will work well together and get you in the door at a reasonable price. As for the BR1600, I used it and I liked it. I don't have it any more, and I don't really miss it, but it was a good unit.
 
A very long-winded (er...typed?) reply:

MrSounds, what instruments do you or those you plan to record play? What instruments do you have readily at your disposal?

I ask because you mention a lot of features on the MTR that are today's hot items, but that probably won't do a lot of good. If you are able to record drums (if you play, or if you play in a band with a drummer), you're going to find programming to be a serious PITA. Similarly, you probably won't get much use out of something that sets its own input gain; part of the recording process is being able not just to set an appropriate level, but to optimize your whole signal chain to use each piece of equipment to its fullest. What does that mean? It means that when your preamps start playing with themselves, they're probably going to make a bunch of noise and create a bunch of artifacts on your recordings that you have to deal with. Finally, auto-tune isn't what it's cracked up to be. Unless you're ready to dump the money on true visual-editing-capable pitch-correction software, you're going to be using a glorified vocoder.

I know this all sounds cynical, but I don't intend it to be so. When recording audio, your goal is to get the best audio recording possible. To do that, you need to balance your budget with your needs. Your needs will include at a minimum: 1) acceptable microphone(s), at least two (preferably of the same type); 2) acceptable preamplifiers (low-noise, adequate gain for the microphones you're using, and phantom power if necessary); 3) acceptable AD/DA converters (and enough of them); 4) a unit to record and store audio (like a computer or the meat of the MTR); 5) something to mix with; and 6) something to monitor with.

If you go with an MTR, you have to consider 2), 3), 4), and 5) simultaneously if you don't want to mix on a computer because they're all in one box. That's a lot to balance with a budget. If you go with a DAW, you can take care of 2) and 3) in one shot if you pick an audio interface that will work for your needs. 4) and 5) are grouped together as you say you have legal access to software and you'll use the DAW to mix. 1) and 6) are their own categories. :D


If I were just starting out and I had $1,500 along with legal software, I would probably go with a DAW. I would take one of two approaches:


Approach 1:

$700 for a computer. I think you can pretty much buy a laptop off the rack nowadays that will do what you need it to.

$400 for an audio interface. Depending on how many channels you need, you can get something for as little as $150 up to, well, the sky's the limit.

$50-$300 on headphones or monitors. You can buy a good set of headphones for a lot less than good monitors, but be prepared to cross-reference your mixes a lot. That will entail a lot of CD burning and running out to your car at midnight and running to the living room to the stereo and listening through Ipod headphones, etc. Or you could pick up some monitors that will have a flatter response.

$remainder on mics. If you just go with headphones, or if you have monitors or cans already, you can spend up to $250 on mics. Mics are a touchy subject because they are often an investment. However, if you are brand new, you want mics that are affordable enough to replace but with varying characteristics so you can experiment. If you have $250, shop around and be patient. I got an AT2020 for $99 at GC once, and they threw in an MXL 990/991 kit for free. While not one of those mics is the holy grail, 3 MDC condensers for $100 is pretty good. I now have at least three different mics to work with. You also can't go wrong with a decent dynamic, like an SM57. They're pretty versatile and practically indestructible. Or get a pair of inexpensive SDCs and spend the rest on a good dynamic or two or an LDC.


Approach 2:

$500 on a computer. It won't be used for recording.

$500 on a MTR. Something like a Zoom R16 can be had for $400. You'll be using the flash card if you get an R16.

$500 on monitoring and mics.

If you really got a deal on a computer, you could get a laptop that will run more audio tracks than you'll probably need for $400 or less. add a $400 Zoom unit, and you have $700 for peripherals, mics, sampling software, monitors, whatever.


In Approach 1, you're picking the interface to capture the audio with the computer. That will necessitate a more powerful computer. In Approach 2, you're taking advantage of the no-latency, hardware-driven MTR but can transfer files to your computer for editing and mixing. The computer will handle much nicer samplers and effects than those available in an all-in-one box.
 
MrSounds said:
I've tried the free Reaper before I got this CD that everyone is always talking about, there is nothing free about it, maybe at one time it was free. The demo version is what you get when you download it now and only for 30 days, and you can not save any files until you purchase the license. When I first downloaded the application and every time I opened it up. I got a popup that say's "REAPER IS NOT FREE.. Import license" and it takes you to their web site to purchase it. -shrugs-
Click to expand...

REAPER is free. The box you see in the screenshot counts down to zero (bottom right) and then you should see "STILL EVALUATING" that you can click on. As was mentioned above, after 30 days, you're "encouraged" to buy it, but it's a fully functional demo. If the version you have on your CD doesn't work, go to REAPER's website and download it.
 
Jim Lad said:
I've never been able to figure out whether or not the BR1600 actually records at 24bit.... maybe someone can clear that up for me.
Click to expand...

The BR1600 does it's AD at 24 bit, dithers it down to 16 bit for storage on the hard drive, dithers it back up to 24 bit when applying filters and effects & then dithers it back down again to 16 bit to store the results.

These units are getting pretty cheap second hand now. I reckon you could find a used one for around $600-$700 US on eBay at the moment. Original owners appear to be moving on. If you pick one up, format it back to the factory settings and make sure it's version 2.2 operating system (which you can get off the Boss web site) you've got a pretty cheap all up start that can handle eight mics at once. I've thrashed mine for years and just bought another one off eBay so I can midi sync them up and record 16 mics at once. There's never been any incompatibility, latency or reliability issues with them and if you know what you're doing you can get the tracks off them pretty quickly and into Reaper or some equivalent if you do want to mix in the box. I don't bother and just do it all in the MTR. They have their limitations that's for sure but it's pretty hard to get into trouble with them.

Here's what Sound on Sound said about them; "In the real world, the quality of recordings made on the BR1600CD is going to be limited by mic placement, ambient noise, room acoustics and instrument quality, not by the quality of the preamps, the lack of 24-bit recording or the degradation caused by digital attenuators. In fact, for all its fixed 16-bit/44.1kHz nature, the BR1600CD will deliver better recordings than its competitors in many situations, because it's almost completely silent in operation. I recorded a quiet finger-picked acoustic guitar part with the mics quite distant and the BR in the same room, and no trace of hard drive noise made it onto the recording.":)

However, if you're buying a new MTR, I'd go Korg D3200 I think.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, JedBlue:
The lack of 24 bit recording makes it a nonstarter in my books but a nice machine in all other respects.
 
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