MP3's versus Wav file format for burning CD's???

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bloozguy

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I've had a number of people tell me that burns of my songs play for them in perhaps their car or truck's cd player, while they won't play in their home stereo system. Any idea why that happens?

Secondly, someone suggested if I encode high quality mp3's of my songs, and burn the cd's with the mp3's instead of wave file format...that chances are their home system's will play them. Any experience or knowledge on that?

I did an experiment...which may say more about my rock'n roll ears starting to go in older age. I encoded one of my songs into mp3 at 208,000 bits...which ended up as about a 6K byte file versus the 52K byte file of my wav file. I burned both themp3 and wav files to the CD...and can't really tell much difference between the two other than it took a long time to initially mixdown my song into the mp3 format.

I'm using Cakewalk Pro Audio 9.0....btw.

Interested in any thoughts, warnings, experience....thanks!


bloozguy
 
First, I assume we are talking audio CD's here, right?

If that is the case, whether you start with .mp3 or .wav files will have no bearing on whether the CD plays in a CD Player (that is, assuming everything else in the chain is the same - same burner, same software, etc.). Either format needs to be coverted to Red Book Audio in order to create a "playable CD". So ultimately the format will be changed during the CD burning process, and what you started out with is immaterial (at least for compatibilty purposes anyway).

Whether the CD plays in various CD players is a mostly a function of the brand of CDR you use, the CD burner you use, the software you use to create the audio CD, and the CD player it is being played on.

Lots of variables here. You probably want to start by finding a brand of CDR that your burner tends to like. Buy some small quantitues of differing brands. Create a CD, test in on a variety of systems and once you get one that works, stick with that brand. (There seem to be a lot of religious wars regarding brands of CD-R's - but ultimately you just need to find one that works well with your burner.)

Also, make sure you are burning in disc-at-once mode. That should give you the most compatibility.

Lastly, don't use .mp3's to create your CD's (even though it doesn't effect compatibility). MP3 is a lossy format, which means that parts of the file are removed in order to conserve file storage space. The better algorithms are able to do this quite well, and they sound pretty good, but regardless, .mp3 is still a lower quality format than a 44.1, 16 bit wave file. For the best fidelity, continue to use .wav files to create your audio CD's.
 
dachay, you know your stuff, so help me here:

When converting an MP3 to "RedBook", aren't you basically turning the mp3 into a wav. file? I have always thought that an MP3 cant be "burned" to a CD unless been changed to a wav. file, correct?

Blooz, I can tell a difference between an MP3 recorded at 128kbs (standard for internet, I think) and a wav. file. I have done the test several times on my Tannoys, noticable difference.

As Dachay said, I can't think of a reason you should be messing with mp3 if you are recording stuff from PA9 to a CDR. I just save as a wav. file and burn away on my Burner that came with the computer (HP). Never had a problem yet, play them in any CD player available, even use the el-cheapo 50-pack CDs.
 
I have always thought that an MP3 cant be "burned" to a CD unless been changed to a wav. file, correct?
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It depends on the software. Some software is capable of converting directly from .mp3 to Red Book audio, so the step of converting to a wave would not be necessary.



When converting an MP3 to "RedBook", aren't you basically turning the mp3 into a wav. file?
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No. Wave (.wav) is a file format for storing audio on computers (a Microsoft invention I believe). Red Book audio is not a file format at all, but rather a standard for how audio is placed on a "playable" audio CD.

Now does that get me a violin solo on my next CD?? :)
 
Another point about MP3s is that they are compressed with a lossy compression scheme. Whether or not it gets turned back into WAV data before being burned to an audio CD, the data lost in the compression cannot be gotten back.

I also have been under the impression that the WAV data format and the CD audio Red Book format come from the same beginnings and are essentially the same, datawise.
 
Make sure you burn your audio cd's with "cd text" option turned OFF. That's the option that let's you add author/track info to the cd-audio disc. If you leave this on, most older cd audio players will gak on the disc, sometimes acting like it's searching forever for track info, other times just never finding the tracks period.
 
Lots of good stuff here all, worth the price of admission!

I had a multi-media system built several months ago...256Ram card with three slots to have up to 1000 Ram if I want. My burner is a 12x10x32x ...called a "Burn Proof" and my software for burning is Easy CD Creator 4 by Adaptec. I use Cakewalk Pro Audio.....as my recording software, with the Aardvark Direct Pro as my interface.

Thanks for the descript on what an mp3 is....which as described makes sense not using them to burn!

As for your suggestion Heinz, about keeping the "cd text" option off...I find that most interesting.

My Cakewalk "Mixdown" to Export tracks...allows just before the encoding process to give such description, but that is for mp3's. For my wav format, I did type up the general album name, and my name as the Artist in the Adaptec program. Also, the name of the songs. Are you saying that any of this textual labeling may cause problems for older cd players to read? Want to make sure I understand you right. Perhaps I need more clarification on the "cd text option." Thanks....

bloozguy
 
I also have been under the impression that the WAV data format and the CD audio Red Book format come from the same beginnings and are essentially the same, datawise.
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AlChuck - I believe that you are correct that there are similarities between .wav files and red book in how the data is represented, but they are not the same thing. Here is a section from the help file from Wavelab:

"Red Book CD is not a real file format

Those of you who are computer literate, might know about file formats. Please note that red book CD is not a real file format. All the audio on the CD is stored in one big chunk, one file if you will. This is different from hard disks for example, where each file is stored separately. Understanding the fact that all the audio is in fact one long stream of digital data, is something that will probably help you to betterunderstand the limitations of the format."

(c) Steinberg Soft & Hardware GmbH 1995-2000

So when you are going to burn a CD you start out with 10 - 12 separate wave files, right? But after you've burned it you've got one humungous file with markers donating track starts and pauses.
 
Dachay et al, understand all of the above, but I want to ask some related questions that will send some of the members groaning to the hills. Sorry, but don't flame me...please:D I need to understand this.

I have HS2002 and a soundblaster Live! platignum 5.1. If I understand correctly, it has 16bit , 44k1 and 48k recording capability. HS2002 has bit file depths of 16 & 24 both at 44k1 & 48kHz. (why no 96k - is that because of the s/blaster limitation?)I currently record at 16bit, 44k1 kHz.

Q1) Is there any point in recording at 16 bit 48kHz over 16 bit 44k1? a) Will I notice the difference? b) How obvious will it be?

I am in the market for a Delta 66. That has 24bit, 96 k capability. I will keep the s/blaster for soundfonts and midi.

Q2) Is there any point in my recording now at 24 bit 48k in HS2002? If so why?

Q3) How does HS2002 cater for two soundcards at differing (i.e. 16bit 44k1/48k and 24 bit 48k/96 bit) capabilities? a) In fact, can it handle it? b)Or do they have to have the same settings?


Q4 ) And if CD's are 16 bit 44k1 format, does the cd burning software automatically dither to that spec. a) Or do you have to instruct it? b) Or is it HS2002 that does it?

Q5) And what happens to all your legacy recordings using HS2002, how does changing the audio settings to a higher spec affect the playback of lower bit depth and frequency settings recordings?

Before anyone suggests it, I have searched the homrec forums but ended up more confused than I was when I started out. And some of the other forums are so aggressive to this question, it starts a war whenever asked.

Sorry for so many questions, but I really would like to get to the bottom of this, and I don't think I am the only one either. I think I know the answer to some of the above, but any input from more learned and experienced members would help a great deal.

:confused:

Thanks in advance.
 
My answers are below, in bold.


Q1) Is there any point in recording at 16 bit 48kHz over 16 bit 44k1? a) Will I notice the difference? b) How obvious will it be?

The general consensus seems to be that the difference between 48K and 44.1 is not large enough to make any significant quality difference, and that you are likely to lose any minimal gain when downsampling to 44.1 to burn to CD as a result of the algorithms used to convert.


Q2) Is there any point in my recording now at 24 bit 48k in HS2002? If so why?

You can't. SB Live is only capable of 16 bit recording.

Q3) How does HS2002 cater for two soundcards at differing (i.e. 16bit 44k1/48k and 24 bit 48k/96 bit) capabilities? a) In fact, can it handle it? b)Or do they have to have the same settings?

I'm not familiar with HS2002. However, if it works like Sonar there are two separate settings - file bit depth and recording bit depth. You can set you file bit depth to 24 bits, regardless of the sound card you are using. However, you have to set your recording bit depth to match the capability of the sound card you use to record.


Q4 ) And if CD's are 16 bit 44k1 format, does the cd burning software automatically dither to that spec. a) Or do you have to instruct it? b) Or is it HS2002 that does it?

Some software does, and some doesn't. :) Sonar has the ability to export 24 bit files to 16 bit waves - not sure about HS2002. When you do "export wave", see if there is a choice for bit depth (there will probably also be a checkbox for dithering as well). Please remember, though, that not all dithering algorithms are created equal. If you can, you might want to try a few different approaches to see what works best for your taste/ears.

Q5) And what happens to all your legacy recordings using HS2002, how does changing the audio settings to a higher spec affect the playback of lower bit depth and frequency settings recordings?

Not sure what you are asking here. Generally you can use 16 bit recordings in 24 bit software - the software will just add extra 0's for the missing bits. IOW, your recording won't get any better, but it shouldn't get any worse.
 
dachay2tnr,

Thanks for that clarification from the Wavelab help file...
 
wave to MP3

Is there a way to convert wave files to MP3 files? I asked this same question on the MP3 Clinic, but got no answers.
 
Dachay, many thanks you for your reply. Light is beginning to dawn on the subject;)

HS2002 is exactly the same as Sonar in respect of the way it saves waves.

in Options>audio> general, there is a "file bit depth" setting for 16 or 24 and a "driver input bit depth" setting of 16,18,20,22 & 24. Q1) Which of these two settings is the recording bit depth? (In Options>audio> advanced, there is a check box to apply dither.)

Q2) Also, in export audio, as per Sonar, there is a choice of 16 or 24 bit depth. If you choose 24 bit, (Having recorded in 24 bit) where can you use it if CD's only supports 16 bit recording?

Q3) What happens if you have saved some .bun work in 16 bit some time previously and want to lay down a new instrument track using 24 bit. I guess you can't, you will have to record it at 16 bit and the same frequency setting as the other clips?

Q4) If I have a s/blaster card for midi and a Delta 44/66, I guess both devices will show up in my Playback and Record device drop-down menu. What do I do if I want to use the S/b for midi and the Delta for 24 bit audio recording on the same work file/track/song. I would need to select both wouldn't I? I suppose I would do that on each of the the Track>properties?

Q5)If I used both cards for audio on the same song, the wavs would be saved as 16 bit for the s/b and the higher resolution 24 bit for the Delta (if thats what I choose to do). Then I guess I would export @ 16 bit in which case, the 24 bit wavs would be dithered and the 16 bit wavs wouldn't?

Sorry for the questions.

:rolleyes:
 
You sure got lot's of questions :) . Answers below.

in Options>audio> general, there is a "file bit depth" setting for 16 or 24 and a "driver input bit depth" setting of 16,18,20,22 & 24. Q1) Which of these two settings is the recording bit depth? (In Options>audio> advanced, there is a check box to apply dither.)

In Sonar it's called Audio Drive Bit Depth. In your case it would be Driver Input Bit Depth. If you tried to set it to 24 bits in your current configuration, you should get an error message stating your Sound Card doesn't support it.

Q2) Also, in export audio, as per Sonar, there is a choice of 16 or 24 bit depth. If you choose 24 bit, (Having recorded in 24 bit) where can you use it if CD's only supports 16 bit recording?

You would use this if you were planning on doing any additional work on the file. For example, if you were sending it out to be professionally mastered, you would benefit from sending the mastering facility a 24 bit file, rather than 16 bits. Personally, I use Wavelab for DIY mastering, and I always start with a 24-bit file from Sonar. I dither to 16-bits only as the very last step before burning to CD.

Q3) What happens if you have saved some .bun work in 16 bit some time previously and want to lay down a new instrument track using 24 bit. I guess you can't, you will have to record it at 16 bit and the same frequency setting as the other clips?

I'm guessing here, since I haven't attempted this. But I would assume you could change the bit depth on the file from 16 bits to 24 bits, and Cakewalk would just add 0's in place of the missing bits. It won't improve the quality of the existing audio (it will still contain only 16 bits of actual information), but it should allow you to record new audio at 24-bits.

Q4) If I have a s/blaster card for midi and a Delta 44/66, I guess both devices will show up in my Playback and Record device drop-down menu. What do I do if I want to use the S/b for midi and the Delta for 24 bit audio recording on the same work file/track/song. I would need to select both wouldn't I? I suppose I would do that on each of the the Track>properties?

I assume that you will be using the Delta for all your audio recording, so you would set everything for 24 bits (file bit depth and driver bit dept).

Q5)If I used both cards for audio on the same song, the wavs would be saved as 16 bit for the s/b and the higher resolution 24 bit for the Delta (if thats what I choose to do). Then I guess I would export @ 16 bit in which case, the 24 bit wavs would be dithered and the 16 bit wavs wouldn't?

Why would you use the SB for audio when you have a 24-bit Delta for that? Other than that, I think your assumption is essentially correct.

You still could export a 24 bit file if you wish, it's just the 16 bit audio contained in the 24 bit file wouldn't have any significant information in it.
 
Is there a way to convert wave files to MP3 files
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Sibleypeck, there sure is.....and mp3 to wav too!
Click to expand...

Basically almost any audio format under the sun can be opened in some application and converted into virtually any other format.

Paul881, don't forget that an MP3 is a lossy compressed format. Converting an MP3 to a WAV won't get back the data that's been lost in encoding the MP3 in the first place.
 
Paul 881

Thanks for the mp3 freeware link. Can you give me any instructions on how to use it?
 
bloozguy said:
As for your suggestion Heinz, about keeping the "cd text" option off...I find that most interesting.

My Cakewalk "Mixdown" to Export tracks...allows just before the encoding process to give such description, but that is for mp3's. For my wav format, I did type up the general album name, and my name as the Artist in the Adaptec program. Also, the name of the songs. Are you saying that any of this textual labeling may cause problems for older cd players to read? Want to make sure I understand you right. Perhaps I need more clarification on the "cd text option." Thanks....

bloozguy
Click to expand...

Ummm no that's not what I meant. :) When you go to burn an audio CD, you can opt to put "cd text" on the cd, in fact this is usually checked "on" by default in most burner software applications. Anyway, the purpose for this option is so when you put the cd in a modern cd player, the track/artist info comes up on the device.

Unfortunately most older cd players see that as a corrupt or masked index and sometimes cough up furballs when trying to load the index.
 
Dachay,

Many thanks again for having the patience to answer my questions. You have been a great help. One more question, given that you have the technology to do so, do you recommend recording at 44k1, 48k or 96kHz , all at 24 bit?


Alchuck, thats a good point you made about wav to MP3 conversions. In the days of old when Napster ruled the www, the difference between the downloads and the real thing was very noticeable. "Near Cd" quality made me laugh. I think A1MixMan posted an article some time ago on this very subject.
 
Sibleypeck,

Its so easy, even I could use it without too much head scratching:D . Just down load and crank the program up, choose your format, point the browser to your files and then "open" and away it goes. It will file the result in Audio Output file under the CDex program on your hard drive.
 
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