More on AD/DA Converters...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Booda
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Booda

Booda

Master of the Obvious
I just read through LocusLarsen's thread and didn't want to piggy back on it, so I started this one...

Recently my friends and I were discussing our recordings and the How or Why of getting a more Pro sound. Besides the fact that they are in a million dollar studio... I think that with a Aardvark Direct Pro or Delta 1010 it's possible. One of my friends is convinced it won't happen because of the Converters.

I have been around recording for over 10 years and with the DAW and me twiddling the knobs just about 3 years. My recordings sound pretty decent as do many Home recorders (like my friends and others you hear on the web). But they just don't sound like a Major Label recording. There's just a presence & richness missing.

I've been looking at better Preamps (RNP,Grace,Gtreat River ect) to use instead of the Aardvarks and a decent Compressor (RNC). I think It's in the gear (especially Pre's and Mics) and how well you know how to use compression and reverb in a Mix. I actually think Comp is a HUGE factor and it's difficult because it's the effect you can't really hear.

But now I'm questioning the whole AD/DA converter thing. My friend tells me to forget about Preamps and get better converters. He mentioned the Apogee Mini Me.... I looked at it and I don't think that will help my situation. Although It does have Pre's and Comp but it's only 2 channels. So I'd need One Unit for every 2 channels to record? He said it would bypass my Aardvark through the Aarks SPDIF. I guess it would be good for everything but drums and their I could use it on the snare and Kick or overheads... But are those that much better than my Aardvark? What specs tell you how good a converter is?

ANY thought on this whole issue would be great,

Thanks,
B
 
I would never belittle the importance of converters. But the search for that "presence and richness" might be better served by looking at the room acoustics of recording space. That's probably the biggest advantage a pro studio has over most home set-ups.
 
When you guys are talking about room presence you're talking about when micing stuff right? That's all good and dandy for a band but what about electronic styles of music (techno, hip hop, pop, etc). Wouldn't the converters and the pres be important to getting a good sound since you aren't really using 50 mics and you're not picking up any room except during the vocals.

The main reason I’m thinking on this topic is because I own a 1680 and I’m happy with it but I want to soup it up. Make it sound bigger and better... I also plan to get my laptop situation straight and would like to have a top-notch converter for mastering and tracking and what not... Then finally I own an MPC2000xl and I’m considering purchasing the 8-output/digital in/out board and would like to sample using the digital in using some nice sounding converter.

So considering all that I assumed from what i have learned on the web that a really nice converter (like the APOGEE ROSETTA) would help me tighten up my sounds. Seeing as how I have a MACKIE 1604 and I am happy with it I don't see my self needing a preamp of any kind anytime soon but that would be my next step in improving my sound.

Is this the right of thinking for my situation?
 
Well, you're certainly going to see a larger improvement with a good mic and preamp combo through crappy converters than you are with a crappy mic and preamp combo through excellent converters!

Obviously, as you upgrade your converters and as you're able to record in better rooms, the sound is going to improve and clear-up even more, it just won't be as nearly as huge as the mic and preamp combo difference!

Also, a good portion comes-down to just plain experience!

Think of the mic and preamp combo as cleaning all the cluttered crap. Think of the converters and room as scrubbing the ground-in dirt and grim. Think of experience as the polishing.

Of course, don't forget the instruments. I don't know if there's anything worse than accurately capturing crappy instruments or unmaintained instruments on a recording!

Then there's the question of the board when working in analog. It's taken about 7 years for me to finally hear exactly what's happening to my mixes as a result of mixing on a Mackie. And it's almost taken me half that to realize the Soundcraft Ghost isn't all that much of an improvement signal integrity wise, to make it worth it to me for all the extra money! Nor is even the Mackie 8-Bus to me from a VLZ PRO!
 
the most important thing is the wildcard.

Get a better wildcard and forget everything else.

But if for some reason you dont believe me,

then get better mics before preamps before converters.

A lead vocal using a U87 or AT4060 or Lawson L47 going into a mackie VLZ PRO is going to be more noticeable than your average mic into a mega buck preamp and its going to be more noticeable than your average mics or chinese mics going into 4 figure converters.

Of course, its not only the lead vocal. ALL your miced instruments are going to sound better with better mics.

Ultimately, it boils down to the wildcard. Have a wildcard and it wont matter what mic, or pre, or converter, or reverb, or compressor you use.

The wildcard is the most important aspect of the mix.
 
LAZI said:
When you guys are talking about room presence you're talking about when micing stuff right? That's all good and dandy for a band but what about electronic styles of music (techno, hip hop, pop, etc). Wouldn't the converters and the pres be important to getting a good sound since you aren't really using 50 mics and you're not picking up any room except during the vocals.
Click to expand...

Actually, I'd think it would be less important. Traditional "old school" hip-hop beats were generally done on samplers with crappy converters having really low bit depths and sample rates. It's part of the sound. And most modern samplers and MIDI modules have S/PDIF outs, so converters don't factor in there at all. And converters definately aren't less important for things like room ambiance. If anything, the natural reverb tail of a real room is one of the best things to listen to if you want to hear the limits of a converter.
 
Recording Engineer said:
Obviously, as you upgrade your converters and as you're able to record in better rooms, the sound is going to improve and clear-up even more, it just won't be as nearly as huge as the mic and preamp combo difference!
Click to expand...

I'm surprized you put the room so low on the totem pole. I'd put the room on par with the mic. Don't give me a bad mic in a good room, but don't give me a good mic in a bad room either. :D Give me a good mic in a good room and I'll work around the rest.

Not to sound like a broken record, but the quality of the instruments and amps makes the biggest difference . . . and unfortunately for us, we can't compete very well in that department. How many of you have drum techs on hand to change out the snare head and tune the toms after ever take? How many of us have an assembly of vintage Voxs, JCM, Marshall Cabs, Dual Recs, and Fender twins to choose from in our basements?

When was the last time any of us even gave serious thought to the kind of string or pickup we're using? Did you know that upgrading your pickups can improve your guitar sound imensely? Can you even name more than one brand of pickup? Did you know that the type of wood used on your kick drum or your bass guitar will have a profound effect? Now, without looking, can you even tell me what kind of wood your P-bass is made of?

Look, these are the kinds of things that big-budget producers working on big-budget productions have the budgets to worry about. And that's a big reason why their stuff sounds better.

So worry about getting the best sound you can for now, and worry about the other stuff after you land your big record contract.
 
chessrock said:
Not to sound like a broken record, but the quality of the instruments and amps makes the biggest difference . . .
Click to expand...

Actually, the quality of the player makes the biggest difference, but I know what you mean. It amazing how many people will putz around forever trying to figure out how to place a mic or whether they need a new mic or a new pre or a new converter or whatever else to get a good sound without ever noticing that the sound coming out of the amp is shite.

My rule of thumb is that the earlier you are in the chain, the more important the link is, with the chain being:

player -> instrument/amp -> room -> mic -> pre -> converter.
 
jslator said:
My rule of thumb is that the earlier you are in the chain, the more important the link is, with the chain being:

player -> instrument/amp -> room -> mic -> pre -> converter.
Click to expand...

In complete agreement. VERY well-put.

(Although to get really nit-picky, I'd put technique ahead of player, although I'm assuming that's what you meant anyway. :D )
 
chessrock said:
I'm surprized you put the room so low on the totem pole. I'd put the room on par with the mic.
Click to expand...

Well, I'd rather be using a good mic and preamp combo in my living room than having access to a multi-million dollar room and only a shit mic and preamp combo to capture its sound with.
 
Id put good writing and arrangements ahead of everything.
 
Ok, so the thread has moved on from Converters to "Big Sound". That's the real question anyway...

I'm going with the Experience and Ears. Here's a few examples (things I've read, obviously I wasn't there)...
Nirvana's Polly, main track, was recorded in the controll room, on Kurts shitty accoustic that had strings on it that hadn't been changed in many moons... So... not the greatest guitarist or singer or instument but a whole generation of soul, not the ideal room either. Experienced engineers and Pro Tools.

Can't remember the track name but much the same situation with the Beatles and John Lennon siging into a 57 in the controll room.

Primus took their signing $$$ and instead of going into a big studio, they bought a bunch of expensive Mics and recorded Sailing the Sea of Cheese at Home.

Anyway... So I'm thinking that I am on the right track and Converters are down the road... more than a few miles... I have a NTK, 57s, Oktava 012s and the Atares Mic Modeler and will keep on the search for the right Preamp and get a RNC. I may look into a Dragon fly or tlm103 too.

Does anyone have a link to a page that gives a quick run down on what the ideal room accoustics are for certain instruments. I have a Box inside a Box type of room that I can record or Jam in any hour of the night. I have it set up right now so it's fairly dead... Carpeted floor, insulation on the ceiling and just enough sheet rock on the 4 walls to bounce a little bit of frequency around but it doesn't last too long. Cymbals cause the most reflection and when tracking vocals or Accoustic (guitar,cello) I throw a Blanket on the drum set.
I've been thinking of adding some Cedar paneling to the room to richen it up. I could then have Blankets to put up when I want to deaden it down. ? .

Is it possible to have one room thats 10'x15' w/ only 8 foot ceilings work for everything w/ a little crafty manipulation?

Thanks for all the input,
B.
 
Booda said:


Primus took their signing $$$ and instead of going into a big studio, they bought a bunch of expensive Mics and recorded Sailing the Sea of Cheese at Home.
Click to expand...

That and pork soda were incredible sounding records. The room sound, the sense of space, the drum sound, the bass, guitar tone...everything is outstanding. The guys who recorded that were total pros. It wasnt just a matter of getting the money for mics and gear. That sound is arrived at after years of trial and error.
 
True! As I first stated Experience & Ears... I didn't say they were a bunch of Newbies that got a bunch of toys to play w/. But they still got all that you stated at home. BTW- that was something I read 10 years ago when STSoC came out. You sound like you might know more than me on Primus, if it was done at home or not. I remember reading that they got some great equipment and started setting it up all over their house... & were not worring about a clock ticking but just capturing the good take.

I'm not exactly a newbie either... selling records world wide (only a few out of the US ;) ) Having songs in rotation on the Dish network, 2 Major labels at least checking us out and ect... Living w/ a engineer friend and hanging out at studios w/ him for a few years... With Pro gear... Les Pauls, Soldano and ect... One of the friends I mentioned above has toured the US several times, played Madison Square Garden 2x, has a great Drum set and knows how to Mic it and get a damn good sound. Yet their is something missing in the recordings. & I feel it is the lack of Studio Experience and gear. I'm not trying to throw any Ego around by stating the above, because I have no, those are just facts. I have a pretty decent ear for sound and just don't believe that my Aardvark converters are the cause to a lesser than Pro sound.

Actually on another side of the Big Sound... back a few years before everyone had a DAW and friends would go into decent Studios to do Demos (on tape)... the stuff I did w/ my Four Track always sounded better and people would say "where'd you record?" ... at home in a 10x10 room covered in sheet rock. I've never heard a Demo that sounded remotely Pro... That's why I got into DAW. . Even the album I stated above... there was about $15,000 spent on it. Alot of time in the studio (same one some Big Names use, no need to mention) a decent engineer, mastered by Columbia and I personally think it sounds like crap. It's smooth and all but just doesn't have it. & a demo we did for $800, recorded live in one day, mixed and mastered by one of the band members on his daw (who happens to be a engineer and producer) sounds just about as good.

Wow, sorry for the rambling, So back to the room accoustics...

Any ideas,
Thanks,
B.
 
Recording Engineer;
It's taken about 7 years for me to finally hear exactly what's happening to my mixes as a result of mixing on a Mackie. And it's almost taken me half that to realize the Soundcraft Ghost isn't all that much of an improvement signal integrity wise, to make it worth it to me for all the extra money! Nor is even the Mackie 8-Bus to me from a VLZ PRO!
Click to expand...

Yes but, then why do Studios spend $100,000 on a board ?


Sean
 
I'm feeling about 2" tall after reading my last post. I just tried to edit it but it's been past 727 minutes. (funny number to pick)

Anyway, sorry for all that jabber to have to read through. I know I have a Ton to learn and that's why I'm hear as well as lend a hand when possible. I think I just wanted to point out that I didn't just get some recording equipment that I'm trying to figure out. I know there's a lot of that here but there's also quite a few Vets here too, which I know I'm not.

:o ,
B.
 
smellyfuzz said:
Recording Engineer;


Yes but, then why do Studios spend $100,000 on a board ?


Sean
Click to expand...

Huh? I was talking about specific consoles worth $1.5k, $3.5k, and $6k... Who mentioned anything about $100k consoles?
 
smellyfuzz said:
Recording Engineer;


Yes but, then why do Studios spend $100,000 on a board ?


Sean
Click to expand...
Usually because in that price range, the consoles are somewhat better than a Mackie or even a Soundcraft.:cool:
 
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