MORE About Praise Music......

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chazba

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To keep a discussion going about Praise Music from the Mixing BBS,
Some of the guys aren't al that happy with the genre, and some have criticized the musicians who play as part of a Praise Team, suggesting that the musicians are "mediocre" or otherwise not as talented or proficient as the critic. I know nothing of the skill levels of the writers so I won't go there.
I would like to read opinions from people who are involved about what's wrong with P/W music today.
 
i don't know what the other threads said but i don't think there is anything "wrong" with P/W music today...what really do you mean by that?
 
This thread is a continueing from a thread in the mixing/mastering BBS that started getting some off-topic stuff, so I thought I would move it over here and give the critics and the people who are active in the P/W a chance to talk about some of their concerns. I am an ordained M/M and totally immersed in P/W music. What's wrong with it???Well, for one thing, there's not enough GREAT P/W. I would like to see(hear) more great P/W bands and to that end I do all that I can to encourage young people get better, to further their education in music and to jump at any opportunity to perform and present.


chazba
 
chazba said:
This thread is a continueing from a thread in the mixing/mastering BBS that started getting some off-topic stuff, so I thought I would move it over here and give the critics and the people who are active in the P/W a chance to talk about some of their concerns. I am an ordained M/M and totally immersed in P/W music. What's wrong with it???Well, for one thing, there's not enough GREAT P/W. I would like to see(hear) more great P/W bands and to that end I do all that I can to encourage young people get better, to further their education in music and to jump at any opportunity to perform and present.


chazba

Ok, I'll give you my run down of it.

First off, I was a Christian for 25 years, converted back to atheism some 10 years ago. While I've left the Christianity behind, I still listen to GOOD praise music - there isn't much of it, though.

When I was a Christian, I thought praise music sucked in general, and rock praise music sucked hardcore. Rock music has always been about rebellion, and it's super hard to do the whole rebellion thing when you're singing/being sung to about conforming.

Christian rock <> rock in its very attitude.

As for contemporary pop praise music, it's a little worse than it's secular counterpoint, only because the subject matter is so limited. You can only hear the lyric "I love you Jesus" or "He died for me" or "By your hand" so many times. It's been played to death.

And a lot of times the performances on these contemporary gospel songs are so weak, white bread and unfeeling, it's almost like the people who are singing them don't believe what it is they're presenting to you. They very need to remain un offensive to everyone, makes the music so BLAND, that it wreaks of emotional abandonment.

Back in the early 90's I went to a concert - Michael W. Smith, Amy Grant, and the guy Amy Grant used to be married to.... It was an amazing SOUNDING show - best I've ever heard, even to this day. But the music was two dimensional cardboard. It was totally void of any of the grit that live music is supposed to be comprised of. Too clean, too polished, too acted, cookie cutter non offensive blandness, etc....

And Christian rap? Are you serious? What the hell is that? Gangsta Jesus? Horrid.

Who's good? Some of the contemporary bluegrass bands that do praise music are real good... Kentucky Thunder - can't think of the famous guy who is the singer, but when you hear him pickin' and praisin', you feel it. It's genuine. The a cappella R&B group Take 6 is outstanding. I can't think of any contemporary rock gospel music that is any good, though. It just doesn't work.

My opinion, don't care if you agree. ;)
 
I don't think it has to do with the subject matter (Jesus loving) as much as it does the philosophy of traditional religion. I always attributed it to the implied rule that ANYONE can participate.

In a real band, if you already have 2 guitar players, you can pretty much NOT HIRE ANY MORE. If your keyboard player sucks, you can fire him and TELL HIM HE SUCKS.

The praise bands seem to think that even the shittiest player is contributing something by his enthusiasm. After 20 years of gigging, I weigh ability considerably higher than spirit (although I don't like playing with virtuosos that have shitty attitudes).

I like the concept of celebrating the important things in your life through music (for me it would be decidedly inappropriate for the pulpit), but you also have to have respect for the discipline of being a musician: We are elitist scum. We don't like people who suck and don't like playing with them.

My exposure to praise bands is limited, of course. Maybe yours is really hot. I seriously doubt it. I think music is best when fueled by jealousy, ego, anger, pride, and lust, traits not often associated with Jesus.
 
wow i haven't heard this much bitterness towards a certain genre of music in a long while. Could be that you hate God more than you hate P/W bands? Some of my favorite bands are worship bands, like Delirious and David Crowder Band. You can hear the passion in thier voices and you can feel the awe and the wonder from the pictures their lyrics create. Honestly sometimes i find it annoying to listen to a bunch of bitter, angry, sad, (and whatever other negative attitudes) musicians that turn their negativity into a hooky song. On the same note, there are many times i can relate to the artist in their emotion or what not...but really my point is its all about what you prefer to listen to and about what music you can connect to...like if your not christian then its obvious you won't relate with a worship song...because thats all its about...so then you will relate to whatever genre hits closest to home for you...and if your christian...there is enough good stuff out there that you can always find lots of music to listen to...and by the way christian music has come a long way in a short while and its only getting better so....yeah thats my 2 cents


oh yeah and in regards to local type worship bands sucking...yeah they usually do because its a bunch of volunteers that only get together once a week....on sunday. So really you get out of it what you put in...like anything. If a worship band gets together and they are all talented and passionate about it...all of a sudden you get an amazing worship band...but if its just to cover sunday morning service....then it will probably suck...should all worship bands take it more seriously that a lot of them do? Yes they certainly should...will they? Maybe, maybe not. Its really an odd thing....
 
jordiemac said:
wow i haven't heard this much bitterness towards a certain genre of music in a long while. Could be that you hate God more than you hate P/W bands?


Go to the guitar forum and start a thread that a hip-hop dj should be considered a musician.

I think the point that you may be missing is that you are giving guys a bye just because their heart is full of the Light and all that crap. In real life, musicians are like athletes. Sucking with a smile in your heart doesn't get you very far. I know it's shitty. That's the one reason why everyone in the world that every took guitar lessons isn't out there gigging. You can suck and be happy on your couch, but if you suck and try and get a paying gig....

jordiemac said:
oh yeah and in regards to local type worship bands sucking...yeah they usually do because its a bunch of volunteers that only get together once a week....on sunday. So really you get out of it what you put in...like anything. If a worship band gets together and they are all talented and passionate about it...all of a sudden you get an amazing worship band...but if its just to cover sunday morning service....then it will probably suck...should all worship bands take it more seriously that a lot of them do? Yes they certainly should...will they? Maybe, maybe not. Its really an odd thing....

In the volunteer aspect, then the church rock band is like a blues open stage. And even theough there's beer at the latter, it sucks, too! As far as bands that go tour and see success singing for Jesus, I don't know if that is hugely relavent to musicians as a body. I mean, you can see the hottest picker in the world playing at some shitty wedding reception or something. He never made it because he didn't have a niche, or maybe he was ugly, or maybe he didn't have a gimmick. I kinda see the Christian band guys as having exhausted their efforts in traditional pop music and then chosen the Jesus gimmick. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think I am. It's like the Wiggles. You know Goddamned well that they were trying to be AC/DC, Air Supply and Men at Work for years before coming up with the whole wiggles thing.
 
cephus said:
Go to the guitar forum and start a thread that a hip-hop dj should be considered a musician.

I think the point that you may be missing is that you are giving guys a bye just because their heart is full of the Light and all that crap. In real life, musicians are like athletes. Sucking with a smile in your heart doesn't get you very far. I know it's shitty. That's the one reason why everyone in the world that every took guitar lessons isn't out there gigging. You can suck and be happy on your couch, but if you suck and try and get a paying gig....

See the point of worship bands isn't to get rich and famous...at least it won't be if your actually doing worship music for the right reasons anyways...which some people don't.


cephus said:
In the volunteer aspect, then the church rock band is like a blues open stage. And even theough there's beer at the latter, it sucks, too! As far as bands that go tour and see success singing for Jesus, I don't know if that is hugely relavent to musicians as a body. I mean, you can see the hottest picker in the world playing at some shitty wedding reception or something. He never made it because he didn't have a niche, or maybe he was ugly, or maybe he didn't have a gimmick. I kinda see the Christian band guys as having exhausted their efforts in traditional pop music and then chosen the Jesus gimmick. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think I am. It's like the Wiggles. You know Goddamned well that they were trying to be AC/DC, Air Supply and Men at Work for years before coming up with the whole wiggles thing.



well...your being a little narrow in saying that all "christian" bands are just using the jesus gimmick to get gigs. I'm sure that some do and thats thier problem... But not all christian band are like that...and if your being honest with yourself and with god then you know your not doing it for money...although you do need money to live. But either way i think the above statement may be true for some and i agree with you...but its not true of christian and worship music as a whole...i may be wrong but i don't think i am :)
 
Interesting parallel drawn between athletes and musicians....to take it one step further, would you discourage the casual pick-up basketball game because MJ is not on the floor? Perhaps not, because if you love basketball you might enjoy seeing some guys play as well as they can with all the heart and enthusiasm they can muster, not because they are getting megabucks everytime they so much as touch the ball, but they love what they are doing. I've been a pro guitarist since 1957 ( no lie) and can play as well as I want to, but the most important guitar lesson I ever had was the one where I learned humility, and how to listen thru someone's limitations , lack of experience or lack of talent and to respond to their heart and willingness to overcome their shyness to just get up there and pick. Y eah...I have heard some that would have made my flesh crawl 20 years ago, but I have overcome that elitist part of myself. Does that mean that I seek out the shabbiest P/W bands so that I can wallow in my self-congratulations at being so humble that I enjoy having my ears bleed??? Not hardly...But if I find myself in that situation, I don't have to have the obligatory " I can play circles around that bum " response. I just like praisin' the LORD, thats all.

chazba
 
chazba said:
Interesting parallel drawn between athletes and musicians....to take it one step further, would you discourage the casual pick-up basketball game because MJ is not on the floor? Perhaps not, because if you love basketball you might enjoy seeing some guys play as well as they can with all the heart and enthusiasm they can muster, not because they are getting megabucks everytime they so much as touch the ball, but they love what they are doing. I've been a pro guitarist since 1957 ( no lie) and can play as well as I want to, but the most important guitar lesson I ever had was the one where I learned humility, and how to listen thru someone's limitations , lack of experience or lack of talent and to respond to their heart and willingness to overcome their shyness to just get up there and pick. Y eah...I have heard some that would have made my flesh crawl 20 years ago, but I have overcome that elitist part of myself. Does that mean that I seek out the shabbiest P/W bands so that I can wallow in my self-congratulations at being so humble that I enjoy having my ears bleed??? Not hardly...But if I find myself in that situation, I don't have to have the obligatory " I can play circles around that bum " response. I just like praisin' the LORD, thats all.

chazba


thats cool man, i've been a drummer for 11 years...i can't say i'm a pro because i know i'm not...but i'm a good drummer and i've played in a ton of worship bands and just high school jam bands type stuff as well as a regular rock band with some friends. One skill i did develop is being able to work with people who have...rythym issues per say...no timing at all really, and its something you have to work at to get to point that you just say to yourself, "alright i'm here to praise the lord and nothing more...so i'll do my part". I think thats really important.
 
I knew you were sandbaggin' me!

I know there are exceptions. There are exceptions to my gross generalizations about gigging musicians.

Now, if we're going with the pickup game analogy, would you sell tickets to that pickup game? Games at the Y are fun to participate in, but not quite as fun to watch as good college or pro ball.

I talk to tons of people that "play" guitar. They don't really gig. They're just couch pickers and that's cool. They don't talk to me like they're a peer professionally. They talk like we're couch picking peers, which we are.

Seems like when I cross paths with praise pickers, they immediately want to act as professional peers and I flat out don't see it that way.

I have been playing professional for a lot of years and I take pride in what I do. I may not have the newest, most versitile equipment, but I get good (I think great) results on time, every time. I have to chat up the owner to get the gig. I have to chat up the crowd during the gig. I have to tear all my crap down and set it up in a different place every time and have my train set simplified to the point of not taking me 20 minutes till weels up. I have to keep my energy up for 4 hours and not get to talking and take a break for so long that people start to leave.

Music is great. I love music and the magic in people's hearts and teaching and playign around the campfire and at the picnic with 6 other guitar players who collectively know 4 chords. It's great. But I am proud of being a professional musician. There's an awful lot of shit I gotta go through to keep doing it.

I do appreciate what you guys are saying. Sometimes I wish I could wipe away all the crap and just get back to how much fun it was when I was 19 and it was 5 nights a week of jam sessions with different guys. But I wouldn't trade how awesome it's been to be doing the most I can with what God gave me to work with. He knows I appreciate it. He also knows that I am much better put to use winning minds among the sinners right now.

There might be hope for me, brothers. In its time.
 
cephus said:
Music is great. I love music and the magic in people's hearts and teaching and playign around the campfire and at the picnic with 6 other guitar players who collectively know 4 chords. It's great. But I am proud of being a professional musician. There's an awful lot of shit I gotta go through to keep doing it.

I do appreciate what you guys are saying. Sometimes I wish I could wipe away all the crap and just get back to how much fun it was when I was 19 and it was 5 nights a week of jam sessions with different guys. But I wouldn't trade how awesome it's been to be doing the most I can with what God gave me to work with. He knows I appreciate it. He also knows that I am much better put to use winning minds among the sinners right now.

There might be hope for me, brothers. In its time.



Hey man i respect that...i understand where your coming from. At least i think i do...honest haven't been there...i'm only 21 so i have lots of learning to do still and such. I just love to play music too, there is a lot of crap that goes on in anything i think..its whether you can rise above that and just follow your heart and sing like its the last time your gonna sing.
 
I read what you quoted me and it sounds like I'm trying to convince myself that I am as cool as I used to be. ;)














I am, by the way.



...
 
Yeah Cephus....I wish I could be as cool as I used to think I was....lol

I know a few guys who play P/W on sunday morning and still gig 2-3-4 nites a week in the bars. I finally quit trying to mix-n-match lifestyles about 10 years ago after a very long career in the clubs, on the road, whatever-wherever. I just stopped having fun with it. I still now and then go out to hear a few friends play, but I'm picky about who and where.
 
chazba said:
This thread is a continueing from a thread in the mixing/mastering BBS that started getting some off-topic stuff, so I thought I would move it over here and give the critics and the people who are active in the P/W a chance to talk about some of their concerns. I am an ordained M/M and totally immersed in P/W music. What's wrong with it???Well, for one thing, there's not enough GREAT P/W. I would like to see(hear) more great P/W bands and to that end I do all that I can to encourage young people get better, to further their education in music and to jump at any opportunity to perform and present.


chazba

I am not exactly qualified to comment, but I know that as far as the Catholic tradition is concerned, there has been a definite shift away from guitars in churches. A number of years ago, so called 'folk-groups' were a common element of many gatherings around the country. Recently, however, the guitar has been seen as somehow inappropriate in such an orthodox context.
 
Cephus, you make some interesting points.

cephus said:
I don't think it has to do with the subject matter (Jesus loving) as much as it does the philosophy of traditional religion. I always attributed it to the implied rule that ANYONE can participate.

In a real band, if you already have 2 guitar players, you can pretty much NOT HIRE ANY MORE. If your keyboard player sucks, you can fire him and TELL HIM HE SUCKS.

cephus said:
The praise bands seem to think that even the shittiest player is contributing something by his enthusiasm. After 20 years of gigging, I weigh ability considerably higher than spirit (although I don't like playing with virtuosos that have shitty attitudes).


That's an interesting point, but it definitely varies from church to church...how picky they want to be and how deep their talent pool is. Most churches wouldn't let just anyone wander up front and start preaching, and I think it's OK to have some sort of criteria for screening band members. (It's also OK to not screen band members...that's why there's different churches.)


cephus said:
I think music is best when fueled by jealousy, ego, anger, pride, and lust, traits not often associated with Jesus.

I'd add fueled by passion.

And yes, we do think you're as cool as you used to be.:)
 
Jealousy, ego, pride and lust have inspired a lot of music. Don't leave out avarice and vanity . We try not to be motivated by those things but, being human, they are going to creep in to Christian music as a reflection of our sinful nature. We try not to indulge them or enable them because they serve man's lower nature and eventually will pull a person down. Some denominations are so acutely aware of this that they don't have any music in their worship service, believing that it's not worth the risk of diluting the worship and blocking the Holy Spirit.

chazba
 
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