mixing keys

[drossfile]

i've recently begun to use keyboards in my music, which is progressive heavy rock. i just read a critique of someone else's song in the mixing clinic in which several people remarked that the keys sounded surprisingly clear, no mud (which apparently is a common problem with keyboards).

well, i'm finding that when i track keys, it sounds muddy all the way around. piano, strings, organ, electric piano are what i'm primarily using, and they all have a mud factor. i'm disengaging all effects coming out of the board (they only made it worse), i'm trying different patches, and i've experimented with eq some too (post-tracking mostly).

i probably need to work more on the eq part, but has anyone found any tricks or tips for this? i'm using a roland rd700sx. i love the sound through an amp but it just doesn't seem to cut through on tape (or disk as the case may be).

any responses are appreciated.

 

[Seafroggys]

Check the actual composition, and don't play notes where it gets muddy.

Watch out for the 400 hz region, and make sure to use hi-pass filters where appropriate. Keys that don't have bass, cut it out, let the main bass parts breathe.

 

[The Green Hornet]

Yo Chief Inspector Cleusso/Dross:;

Just a thought you might check out. Most of the newer synths are plugged into much reverb in most patches. You can, in most synths, lower the reverb to try a song. If you inadvertantly plugged in a patch with much less auto-reverb, the "clear" sound might be very good. You can always patch in more reverb if you need when mixing.

Green Hornet

PS: You might try running your synth "directly" into your recorder. Depending on room size and "bounce" and other possible sounds, you might even get a clearer sound running direct and adding stuff when mixed.

 

[dementedchord]

IMO... the biggest problem is not being careful as to chord voicing in the left hand... stay away from thick 4 note chords playing below C3 especially if your stacking lotsa key parts... try just root and fifth in the left... or just color tones (3rd and 7th) and let the bass have the roots...

 

[drossfile]

good comments all, thanks!!!

froggys: i'm definitely gonna try high-passing it or at least carve out some serious 400s like you suggested.

hornet: i should've been more specific about how i'm recording it--it's already going direct! when i said i like the sound through an amp, i'm just referring to practice/jam sessions. as for the reverb, i turn the reverb off on the fx panel (default when you power up the board is reverb and delay/chorus on). are you saying that some of the patches may actually have inherent reverb and that the "reverb" effect on the main panel is for ADDITIONAL reverb? that does make sense (reverb in the original sampling session), but wow, that would be crappy.

demented: good point. a lot of the time i'm playing 3-note chords in the bass clef and soloing with the right hand i can see how dense polyphonics could contribute to the problem--i'll try doing the solo w/o the bass chords and see where that gets me.

again, thanks all!

 

[fraserhutch]

In fact, I take this one further and RARELY play any chord voicings with my left hand when playing with a bass player. This is especially true when playing with a guitar players.

As already mentioned, it's all in the arrangement. You have to find your space. Guitar players are generally really bad at this so it's generally left up to use to get out of the way.

And finally, yes, by all mean, cut the verb! Except for special effects (pardon the pun) you want to record your keys mono anyways,
which sort of renders the verb on the patch useless. Spacialize your keys in the mix just as you do the other instruments.

IMO... the biggest problem is not being careful as to chord voicing in the left hand... stay away from thick 4 note chords playing below C3 especially if your stacking lotsa key parts... try just root and fifth in the left... or just color tones (3rd and 7th) and let the bass have the roots...

 

[drossfile]

In fact, I take this one further and RARELY play any chord voicings with my left hand when playing with a bass player. This is especially true when playing with a guitar players.

As already mentioned, it's all in the arrangement. You have to find your space. Guitar players are generally really bad at this so it's generally left up to use to get out of the way.

And finally, yes, by all mean, cut the verb! Except for special effects (pardon the pun) you want to record your keys mono anyways,
which sort of renders the verb on the patch useless. Spacialize your keys in the mix just as you do the other instruments.

ok, so i'm gonna eliminate the bass clef phrases--that certainly makes soloing w/ the right hand easier anyway.

as for verb, i'll have to go into the patch edit screen and see if they have some added there (should've thought of that in the first place), and cut it out if i can.

mono vs stereo: now on the strings parts i'm going for a pretty epic vibe, so i'm tracking stereo and panning hard left/right. i do the same thing with my spacey uber-delay guitar leads and really dig the effect. in fact, the strings are the best-sounding of the keyboard tracks right now.

piano and organ i've been doing mono, and they both sound pretty weak. i'll monkey w/ those patches too.

as for spacializing...oh boy that's where i have trouble all the time in pieces like the one i'm working on now. huge epic jam songs with super-busy drums, bass, rhythm & lead guitars, piano and strings all going at the same time. perhaps i should write some lyrics and sing over top of all that?

thanks for your input--it's definitely useful.

 

[fraserhutch]

ok, so i'm gonna eliminate the bass clef phrases--that certainly makes soloing w/ the right hand easier anyway.

Note I said rarely - there are times when you want somethiong going on in the left hand. I will double a bass figure for effect, and in some arrangements you can feature something on the left hand - look at Stevie Wonder's Superstition and Play That Funky Music. WHat is important to note is that the arrangements are crafted so that the bass and keys in this case don't collide in time or frequency.

I bring this up because of your use of the bass clef phrase. You as the arranger have to determine whether that you are playing there is significant enough to be featured over the guitars and bass.

mono vs stereo: now on the strings parts i'm going for a pretty epic vibe, so i'm tracking stereo and panning hard left/right. i do the same thing with my spacey uber-delay guitar leads and really dig the effect. in fact, the strings are the best-sounding of the keyboard tracks right now.

Note that when you do this, you have to orient your mix to the space created by the strings. Personally I'm not a hige fan of doing that.

piano and organ i've been doing mono, and they both sound pretty weak. i'll monkey w/ those patches too.

What I've found is that selecting the right key patch is an art because what sounds good in the presets rarely is what you want in a mix, and what sits great in a mix rarely sounds all that good solo'd.

as for spacializing...oh boy that's where i have trouble all the time in pieces like the one i'm working on now. huge epic jam songs with super-busy drums, bass, rhythm & lead guitars, piano and strings all going at the same time. perhaps i should write some lyrics and sing over top of all that?

That's where the real arrangement work comes in. Knowing what to cut from the arrangement. Knowing where to cut frequencies and when so that parts don't collide. Knowing how to create your acoustic space.

No one said this was going to be easy

thanks for your input--it's definitely useful.

My pleasure.

 

[mikeh]

Some good info in this thread. I've found more than any other factor, choice of voicing impacts my recorded clarity of my keyboard tracks (followed by choice of actual sounds).

While some musical styles (acoustic jazz, clasical, etc) may call for plenty of left hand chords, etc. - things like rock, pop and country often don't need the left hand since guitars and bass guitars often eat up most of that space. Often even in the right hand the parts are spare and may only be two note voicings.

I've often found it ironic that I've spent a fair amount of time trying to develop my left hand - yet given the music I perform/record (rock, pop and country) I rarely need the left hand (except for some pitch bends)

I try hard to find ways to drop guitars out to allow for keyboards in certain parts of songs (such as a bridge, etc).....but given that guitar is such a large part of the sound of rock/pop/country - the keys tend to be either one or two note pads or staccato riffs in the high end.

While I was not a fan of 80's music at least there were some genre's that depended on keys more than guitar.............at least back then, I actually used my keyboards