Mixing Down To A Stand-Alone Digital Device

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General Zubon

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A bit of background: in the late 90's, I mixed my recordings down to a Panasonic SV-3700 DAT machine. I sort of fell in love with the sound I perceived I was getting from this machine, and it seemed to add some subtle and nice compression when the incoming signal slightly touched red on the unit's meter. In the 21st century I ditched the DAT and decided to start mixing down into Sound Forge on a PC. After a few years of this and some frustration with the final sound, I decided to move back to the Panasonic DAT machine I loved. Having sold my previous one, I tracked down a used one and started getting mixdowns that I was sonically satisfied with once again.

Now this second Panasonic seems to have bitten the dust. I could look for another Panasonic machine but I'm worried that I'll probably just find myself in a loop of constantly buying replacements unless I actually run across a brand new one. It would also be nice to have 24-bit capability (which the SV-3700 doesn't offer).

So, I'm looking for alternate suggestions for stand-alone recording options that might make me happy. The Alesis Masterlink has been suggested to me, as has the Korg MR1000 , but I'm not sure if those units will really have the advantage sound-wise that I perceived with the Panasonic vs. mixing down into the PC.

At the risk of sounding a bit ignorant amongst the much wiser audio gurus inhabiting the forum I'll try to explain what I am looking for in 'sound'. I suppose I'm rather generically looking for that 'warmth' or 'analog-style richness' that we all seem to be after. I mainly do electronic music with some live instruments, and I think keeping my overall sound a bit organic rather than too sharp or 'digital' sounding sets me apart. I also was not happy that, when mixing into the computer, even though I was getting good level (at the edge of red) in the meter on the PC the final mix just sounded lower in volume and a bit lifeless next to a similar mixdown on the DAT machine. This isn't about volume wars or whatever ... the PC mixdowns just were duller.

I mix through an analog board (a Mackie 32-8) and use outboard gear + effects in addition to the computer ones, so that helps a bit. But mixing into the computer just seemed to anesthetize it all.

Though I'm leaning towards a stand alone recorder I'd be fine with mixing in the computer if I can get the results I want. Perhaps there is an outboard processing or sound card solution. I was mixing down into Sound Forge on the PC, straight from the Mackie, via a M-Audio Delta 66 sound card. I also have a Mac G5 which I use for sequencing and tracking (Logic 8), going through a MOTU 2408 and a Behringer Ultragain Pro-8, though I'd like to avoid mixing down in the same computer that I'm sequencing/tracking from.

Lastly, I'm a bit underfunded at the moment so inexpensive options are always best. But if there's a fantastic solution that would make me happy and satisfy me for the next several years then I'll pull out the credit card and take the risk (but would still like to keep this south of US$2000).

I look forward to your insights. Thank you in advance.
 
Based upon your description, it sounds like what you're hearing in the Panasonic is not the fact that it's a 16-bit DAT machine, but rather onoe of two other things:

1) that you like the sound of either the analog preamps or the A/D converters that they used in it, especially when pushed up into the last few dBs of headroom.

2) That even though the Panasonic's meters are only lightly touching the red, you are in fact getting some clipping happening in there, which in it's own way is a form of compression.

In the first case, that would mean that the key link in your current recording chain that isn't giving you what you're looking for would be the M- Audio Delta66. This would not be suprising, as it is - on the relative scale - a pretty entry-level interface. Not that the inputs on the Pannie were anything Nobel-Prize winning, but one would not necessarily expect much of a "warm" sound from the Delta.

Replacing the 66 with something that'll make a real difference could be costly if you need that many channels, and because of the subjective and elusive description of what you're looking for could be (but not guaranteed will be) a trial-and-error process. Yo might want to check out the multi-channel interfaces from RME and Focusrite Sapphire for something that has a fairly decent sound without going over your price limit.

An alternate solution would be to look at plug-ins for your software that are quality emulations of analog compressors. The best can be just as expensive, from UAD (a hybrid hardware/software solution) or a software bundle from Waves, but you'll want to look at those nonetheless.

You may be able to get away with what you want with something like the PSP Vintage Warmer plugin or the Blockfish compressor plugin's "saturation" control (both available on the Internet, just do a search on the names of the plugs.) Before dripping a dime on any of the above, you might want to start there and see if that gives you the kind of thing you're looking for.

G.
 
Thanks for that. Your assumptions on the SV-3700 are probably correct. If it makes any difference, I did a session at a studio in Reykjavik once where the engineer also used a Panasonic SV-3700 for mixes. After inquiring I found out he had independently become enamored with the machine's distinctive sound when 'clipping' ... so it's not just me. :cool:

Two things:

- I may be misunderstanding your recommendation, but I don't think I need a multi-channel interface for the PC, or at least nothing too channel intensive. This card would solely be for mixing so all I'd require would be a stereo in and a stereo out. I mention this as it may change your recommendations ...
- I have tried the plug-in route and it's not really worked for me. I'd rather be satisfied with the original recorded signal than trying to polish something that may not be there to begin with. Plug-ins would be an absolute last resort solution to my problem.

Thanks again ... looking forward to continued discussion.
 
General Zubon said:
- I may be misunderstanding your recommendation, but I don't think I need a multi-channel interface for the PC, or at least nothing too channel intensive. This card would solely be for mixing so all I'd require would be a stereo in and a stereo out. I mention this as it may change your recommendations ...
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Well, a few things there...

When you are tracking/recording to the PC, are you going to be wanting/needing to record more than two tracks at a time? The D66 you have now is capable of 4 simultaneous inputs, so I thought you might want/need at least that much. Especially with a 32-8 , it'd be nice to at least be able to handle the 8 submix busses.

The sound you are getting is as dependent (actually more) on your tracking path as it is on your mastering path. If the D66 is the cause of your dissatisfaction in the mastering chain, it sure isn't going to sound any better in the tracking chain. Why record your source files via a different box than you are mixing through, especially if the idea is that the first box may be limiting your sound?

But moreso, you say you are going to me mixing thorugh the new box. Doesn't that automatically mean that you're goingto need to send more than 2 outputs from your PC to you mixer? I mean, if you are only sending stereo out to the mixer, there's nothing to mix...unless you are mixing down to mono ;). Or am I misunderstanding something there?
General Zubon said:
I have tried the plug-in route and it's not really worked for me. I'd rather be satisfied with the original recorded signal than trying to polish something that may not be there to begin with. Plug-ins would be an absolute last resort solution to my problem.
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I agree with that completly. I was just offering the cheapest possibility first.

And think about that, General sir. That applies exactly to what I was just saying about using the good box for tracking. get the sound you like in tracking an the mixing/mastering will have less of a turd to polish (so to speak ;) ).

G.
 
I think we are misunderstanding each other. If I am using the PC for mix-downs then my signal path is as follows: up to 16 audio channels (recorded live tracks & audio instruments) from the DAW on the Mac G5 into the Mackie (MOTU 2408 and a Behringer Ultragain Pro-8, as above, for this part of the chain), then a stereo master out from the Mackie to the PC (the Delta 66 in use here). So a L/R input on the PC is all I really need, save for stereo out for playback (which I imagine would always be included in any sound card). Any additional channels would be nice as a 'just in case' measure but not necessary if it cuts the cost.

The songs I'm running on the DAW via the Mac can be pretty CPU intensive so I prefer to be recording the stereo master on a separate machine. I also am pretty used to Sound Forge and WaveLab as audio editors, so that's another reason I use the PC.

If I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at then my apologies, but hopefully this will make things clear.
 
I don't really mean this as an insult or anything, so don't take it the wrong way.

But I think you've lost your marbles if you think that clipping an old DAT machine is actually "adding" anything desirable.

And certainly nothing that would even roughly or remotely equate to "analogy" or "warm."

Crapping up a signal so it sounds a little rough ... doesn't have anything to do with those two vague terms to begin with. And certainly the solution to whatever those elusive terms are that you threw out ... it certainly ain't gonna' be more digital gear clipping, and at a low bit depth.

That's just bad audio.
 
Yeah, it's sort of hard to explain to someone who hasn't actively used these Panasonic machines. And I'm assuming you haven't because the effect is far from making the sound 'rough'. (BTW, clipping wasn't my term, and I'm not convinced that's what's happening)

I'm trying not to take it as an insult, but I wouldn't personally tell someone they've 'lost their marbles' if they like using a piece of gear in a way that suits them, especially if I lack trying it myself on the same gear.

Anyway, hoping for more actual suggestions rather than thread derail ... note in my original post I'm trying to get away from this machine and the low bit depth.
 
OK, yeah, your chain is now clearer to me; my misunderstanding.

I've not used the Panasonic, I've always been a Tascam guy with the DATs. That's not a judgement call, that's just the way the cookie crumbled, a Panasonic never crossed my path is all.

That said, I can't really directly relate to the sound you're talking about. It sounds like you're not necessarily talking clipping so much, as the way the converters act in the last few dBs, or the analog distortion in the preamp stage up there, perhaps. It's not uncommon, especially with older converters, for there to be some nonlinear distortion in the 2-3dB at the top. I believe it might have been Pipeline Audio on this board who had done some tests and made some reports here in that regard. Hopfully he'll see this and pipe in, since he may be more familiar with the "sound".

So without knowing that sound, I can't recommend any particular model that I can say will have the sound you want. usually the "better" the converter, the less "sound" it imparts to the signal (on paper, anyway.) One, however, that I do like for a rather "analog-ish" feel and a great set of converters is the UA 2192. It is only a 2-channel device, excellent for a mastering channel. But you pay for what you get; a new one is about 10% over the top end of your stated budget; certaninly not cheap. But perhaps you can find a used one for a deal.

G.
 
Thanks again, Glen.

I've just spent the last hour reading up on the Korg M-1000 and it seems pretty amazing. At this moment (and this could change in the next 5 minutes) I'm thinking sometihng like that would be a great stand-alone recorder. Then, with such a nice quality master to work with, I'd be able to explore more with the plug-in option to find the specific sound character I'm seeking. Any thoughts on this or alternatives?
 
Ah, DSD, eh? I've not worked with DSD yet, but it's supposed to be the best thing to come along since the BIC lighter.

But, unless I'm mistaken, looking at the specs, it appears that the only inputs it has are mic-level inputs. Even at the extent of it's lo gain mode, it at most provides one with a total of only 12dB peak levels above line level (maximum input/putput levels are rated at +16dBu). Am I reading or interpreting those specs wrong?

G.
 
I'm not quite sure ... I've been reading through this really informational 17 page thread about the unit on Gearslutz : http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...r-1000-1bit-5-8mhz-dsd-portable-recorder.html

Though this issue is mentioned a couple times the users don't seem to have much problem with it. There are a few professional studio engineers in the thread using it as a mix-down device and they are all thrilled with it. I'd be interested in hearing other opinions, though.
 
General Zubon said:
I'm not quite sure ... I've been reading through this really informational 17 page thread about the unit on Gearslutz :
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Yeah I aleady saw that thread. One always has to remember when reading Gearslutz threads that those guys are gear sluts; if it's gear, they'll have sex with it. :D There is a strong bias for gear there.

I guess you just gotta stage down the levels coming out of the mixer by a few dB to make room for dynamics. No big deal I suppose. I just find it kinda curious why they didn't just design some line level headroom into the thing to begin with.

I also have no idea now what you're looking for. If you want somthing that sounds like a distorted 16-bit converter like tha Panasonic, I don't know that this will give you what you want or not. It seems to me like this would be just the opposite. That's why I had recommended the UA instead of something like an Apogee back when we were talking regular ol' PCM converters, I thought you wanted some tint instead of pure transparancy.

G.
 
General Zubon said:
Yeah, it's sort of hard to explain to someone who hasn't actively used these Panasonic machines.
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I've used plenty of DAT machines, including the Panasonics (although I'm not entirely certain if it was the exact model you refer to).

And although it was probably about 16 years ago, I do remember enough to know that it's not a sound I would want to go back to. I believe significant advances have been made since then. Again -- not intended as an insult, but if that were the sound I was going for, then I might actually consider an old 16-bit Soundblaster card from '98 -- I might even have one stashed away somewhere.

My guess is that ... there is something wrong with the way you have things routed currently, or perhaps there is an impedence mis-match going on somewhere in your connections that is affecting your audio in a negative way with your current soundcard setup. Again, just a guess ... but maybe there really isn't anything special about the deck -- and perhaps it's just that there are bugs to be worked out with the routing, connections, and gain-staging of your current setup with the two sound cards.

I'm trying not to take it as an insult, but I wouldn't personally tell someone they've 'lost their marbles' if they like using a piece of gear in a way that suits them, especially if I lack trying it myself on the same gear.
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Alright, that was kind of a harsh term to use, admittedly. To put it a little nicer: the overall methods / philosophy of what you're proposing is highly unusual, and goes very much against conventional logic. That's not to mean that there isn't something to this. It's just that, under any known circumstances that I'm aware of ... using older, lower-bit digital converters (and running them hot to the point of occasional clipping) ... has never been associated with "warm" or "analog" tone.

Quite the opposite, in fact.
 
General Zubon said:
Yeah, it's sort of hard to explain to someone who hasn't actively used these Panasonic machines. And I'm assuming you haven't because the effect is far from making the sound 'rough'. (BTW, clipping wasn't my term, and I'm not convinced that's what's happening)

I'm trying not to take it as an insult, but I wouldn't personally tell someone they've 'lost their marbles' if they like using a piece of gear in a way that suits them, especially if I lack trying it myself on the same gear.

Anyway, hoping for more actual suggestions rather than thread derail ... note in my original post I'm trying to get away from this machine and the low bit depth.
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i've had the same experiences with a 3700 which still sits in my rack with a shakey transport. you aren't losing your marbles. apparently there's a brickwall limiter when it hits the red. i like it as well and i looked for the same thing as you when i finally could take no more of the tape's unreliabililty. i also remember getting the same response when posting my thoughts on the matter a few years ago.

after a few years i settled on a masterlink which gave me clear audio but not the 'squish' i liked in the 3700 when it tickled the red.

i got a drawmer 1968 which i run 'in the red' (literally in the 1968's case) pretty much the same way i'd hit the 3700. i'm happy.

used masterlink: 500
used 1968: 1250

1750

fyi - i find a small amount of difference in the 24 bit mode. it is enough to make me use it but i'm fine with 16bit on the masterlink as well.

the outboard converters suggested to you seem like a good idea as well as the masterlinks editing capabilities are limited.

just a note: when my stuff was analog i never had to buy boxes to make it sound better. the further away we get from them analog days the more f-in boxes sit in my rack. :eek:

Mike
 
I also have no idea now what you're looking for. If you want somthing that sounds like a distorted 16-bit converter like tha Panasonic, I don't know that this will give you what you want or not. It seems to me like this would be just the opposite. That's why I had recommended the UA instead of something like an Apogee back when we were talking regular ol' PCM converters, I thought you wanted some tint instead of pure transparancy.
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Well, I'm just exploring options. The thinking behind this option is to get a really high quality and transparent master signal that I could manipulate in the mastering or pre-mastering stage to find the character I desire. Obviously I'd prefer a converter or method that would immediately get me there but part of me fears that trying to find what I'm looking for in a specific converter/sound card might be like chasing ghosts.



i got a drawmer 1968 which i run 'in the red' (literally in the 1968's case) pretty much the same way i'd hit the 3700. i'm happy.
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This is excellent ... I'm definitely going to have to try this out. Cheers for the tip!
 
I have a Panasonic 3700 available for cheap.
works great, no issues.

chazba
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You may be able to get away with what you want with something like the PSP Vintage Warmer plugin or the Blockfish compressor plugin's "saturation" control (both available on the Internet, just do a search on the names of the plugs.) Before dripping a dime on any of the above, you might want to start there and see if that gives you the kind of thing you're looking for.

G.
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Those ones are great. Also good ones to check out are the plugins by Tritone digital...really nice sound.
 
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