VSpaceBoy said:
Thanks for taking the time, it makes sense. So your saying that for all intents and purposes, it really is the only way to go. Right?
Well, I don't know that I want to be quite that negative or definitive...
It would help a great deal if you a) had a stereo PA amp (or dual mono amps), and b) were able to take the time to set up decent separate mixes for the monitors and the mains. This would at least give you the potential to run some gits through the PA with stereo panning, and to leave them out of the stage monitor mix. However, you'd still have the situation of having the gits coming from both the PA and the amps which could go either way sound-wise. The guitarist(s) still wont let you get away with turning down their amps, though; I'd put big money on that
.
Now that I think about it, I do have one band I work for that's a 4-piece rock band (drums, bass, elecric guitar and keyboards) that does run some guitar through the PA. The guitar is a standard Telecaster run through a Fender DeVille amp. They mike that amp with an SM57 and run it through the mono PA along with the keys and vocals. That's kind of a special situation, though, because they have just the one guitarist that has to fight against a bass-heavy band and system. The band leader is the bass player and the two main vocalists have very deep voices, and the mains consist of left and right pairs of EV mains pole-stacked on top of massive EV subs (2 subs, no waiting.
) the floor is always shaking like California during The Big One when these guys play, and that lone DeVille is pressed to compete sometimes. So they do mic that cab and send it on to the PA for augmentation. But even in that case, more times than not, the git channel on the PA is just sweetening it a little, most of the dBs of the guitar are still coming from the DeVille itself.
But based upon your follow-up post and the CD description, I think there's more that you could probably try before you add the extra PA channels. This same band I describe above does the same thing; they play CDs through their PA during the set breaks. First, the CD are studio produced and mastered recordings which by their very nature are going to sound better than live productions. But, and I'm being brutally honest here, those CDs sound flat in comparison to the live sound of the band itself. That is, the band sounds a whole lot better live than those CDs do during the break. I'd think that if the reverse is the case with the band you heard last night (your band? or someone else's?), they had probably better do some work on their setup, to be honest. Put bluntly, if a CD played though the band's PA sounds
that much better than the band itself, the band is doing something wrong.
Yes, there will be many a time when the guitars sound "channeled" (you can hear the lead on one side of the stage and the rhythm on th other, but not both unless you're in the middle.) Sometimes that will even happen if you ran them through the mains, for that matter. Though you're right in the concept that such channeling is far less likely in the mains, simply because they are usually sitting high up on stands and are blowing over the top of the crowd. However there are a couple of simple things that can be done with the guitar cabs themselves that can alleviate that situation. First, take them off the floor. An angled cabinet stand or a milk crate will do the job. Second, if they are buried in a hole against the wall behind the stage, even to or behind where the drummer sits, this can be a real black hole of sound. If the stage itself permits, move the cabinets forward to at least the centerline of the drums, or better, (if there's room) even with the front of the drums. This will take the cabs out of those black holes of sound that not only reduce volume but tend to channel the sound in a narrow beam out the front of the stage. This simple move often will even please the members of the band because they'll now actually be able to hear each other. If I had a buck for every time I heard a keyboardist complain they couldn't hear the guitar on the far side of the stage, I could retire. If I had an extra buck for every time a cabinet move like above solved that problem, I could retire in the Carribean
. These moves will also help remove muddiness from the sound of the guitars and reduce the amount of sympathetic vibration from the cabs to the drum kit.
I'd also wonder about the quality of EQ used by that band (which usually need to be used used far more liberally in live situations than in studios.) Are they dialing in EQ properly on the key channel strips on the PA mixer? Does the PA mixer actually have a decent-sounding EQ section (many of them don't), and if not, is there an outboard EQ available?
But even a 6-piece (drums, two guitars, bass, keyboard and lead singer) band that I work with that has no outboard EQ and are just using the cheapo graphic supplied on their Mackie mono power mixer with old, war-beaten JBL mains, and that uses no compression whatsoever, sounds just wonderful, and has a live punch to it that beats the CDs (or at least matches them). What's their secret? Excellent song arrangements executed by well-practiced, tight musicians with well-maintianed and well-tuned instruments, along with a critical ear that "mixes the stage". By that I mean that with them I don't ride a board. I jut listen and then recommend adjustments to volumes, playing intensities and instrument placements, acting more like a stage director than a mixing engineer during the sound check and set breaks. It's mostly them and their arrangements that's making them sound good, but the "stage direction" is the icing on the cake.
G.
