Mixes are to "airy" and "wide"

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talontsiawd

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Ok, i've been making hip hop beats for about 4 years. And like alot of people, my biggest weakness is mixing. Now for a long time i created all my melodies. This have obvious advantages interms of mixing as as you can deal with where certain things fit in the mix purely by what sound you use, at what octave, etc, etc.

So my real problems come when i use a sampled source with a relative full range of frequencies (don't know the terminolgy) to start with. Meaning they are full tracks, mixed and i sample the stereo track. I low cut to whatever sounds good to start off and possibly tweek that with whatever layering, composition, etc, i do. In my mixing, i pretty much only use eq and tweek any effects i've used, out side of setting my levels. I'll first addmitt i don't have the greatest ears ever, or the greatest mixing environment. I use krk rp5's in a small room with little treatment (no room for it). But i've heard much better in similar situations.

Anyway, my main problem is my mixes often feel "wide" I don't know how ese to describe it. It's not a wide stereo field, it's more that what happens in the stereo field isn't defined enough. Now i have little control over this. I can sample in stereo and limit the width or go to mono. The second, they just don't sound "tight". Anyway, it's hard for me to read these mixing tutorials and apply it to something that starts with a full sound from a finished track to start with. Any tips would be great.
 
I don't know, even if i go to mono, it still seems to be too much. Then you just have too much going on on both sides. Sometimes it's too little. I actually wouldn't say the stereo field seems to wide, it's mostly just not defined enough, interms of the stereo field (when it is stereo), and just in general. Again, i don't have nearly as much trouble when i'm using either a sample that doesn't have a full sound, or something i made from scratch.
 
If you like how the stereo field is sometimes and not other then you should just try some pan automation.
 
I've never sampled anything before, but I would imagine you're pretty much stuck with whatever samples you use. If they're "wide" or "undefined" sounding, then there's not much you can do. Possibly collapse it to mono, then use your own stereo widening plug-ins or possibly an M/S (mono/stereo) technique. I'm not sure if that would work though as I don't really know anything about it. But I would look into it if I were you.

I believe it's more commonly used in mastering, and I've seen it pop up a few times on this board so I would try searching for it.
 
talontsiawd said:
It's not a wide stereo field, it's more that what happens in the stereo field isn't defined enough.
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Better quality converters and solid, jitter-free clocking go a long way to "tightening up" the image. What's your signal chain look like?

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Better quality converters and solid, jitter-free clocking go a long way to "tightening up" the image. What's your signal chain look like?

G.
Click to expand...
Well i mix in the box. The only thing that gets recorded is the sample i use. So it's really just turntable to dj mixer, to regular mixer to soundcard. I just use my dj mixer as a phono preamp. My soundcard is a delta 1010lt. All my drums, bass, etc, is digital. I use reason and rewire in to Protools to mix.
 
talontsiawd said:
So my real problems come when i use a sampled source with a relative full range of frequencies (don't know the terminolgy) to start with. Meaning they are full tracks, mixed and i sample the stereo track. I low cut to whatever sounds good to start off and possibly tweek that with whatever layering, composition, etc, i do. In my mixing, i pretty much only use eq and tweek any effects i've used, out side of setting my levels. I'll first addmitt i don't have the greatest ears ever, or the greatest mixing environment. I use krk rp5's in a small room with little treatment (no room for it). But i've heard much better in similar situations.

Anyway, my main problem is my mixes often feel "wide" I don't know how ese to describe it. It's not a wide stereo field, it's more that what happens in the stereo field isn't defined enough. Now i have little control over this. I can sample in stereo and limit the width or go to mono. The second, they just don't sound "tight". Anyway, it's hard for me to read these mixing tutorials and apply it to something that starts with a full sound from a finished track to start with. Any tips would be great.
Click to expand...
When you low cut you are destroying the stereo field that the original mixer created. Since most people pan the bass centered in a stereo field, you are chopping the center out of the mix which is most likely what is causing your mix to sound airy and wide. I wouldn't be surprised if you lose alot of punch with the vocals too if the tracks you are using has them. You might try converting the original tracks to mono before eqing them and also only apply your effects to the final mix to prevent phasing. That may tighten things up for you.
 
I think you might mean flat rather than wide?
A flat mix could sound wide in a sense becuase it doesnt have the depth.
Think of your mix as 3 dimensional. If there is no depth then the width will be more apparent.
Think that might be what you were meaning. Or am I totally wrong. :)

Eck
 
NYMorningstar said:
When you low cut you are destroying the stereo field that the original mixer created. Since most people pan the bass centered in a stereo field, you are chopping the center out of the mix which is most likely what is causing your mix to sound airy and wide. I wouldn't be surprised if you lose alot of punch with the vocals too if the tracks you are using has them. You might try converting the original tracks to mono before eqing them and also only apply your effects to the final mix to prevent phasing. That may tighten things up for you.
Click to expand...
That's good to know but i have to drop the low end out as i need to put in my own bass. Not only is the original too weak for hiphop but after i chop the samples up, what is left may not be coherient.


Alot of good info here. I really apprciate the time. Would posting up something help? Maybe a mix i feel is average of my capibilities?
 
ecktronic said:
I think you might mean flat rather than wide?
A flat mix could sound wide in a sense becuase it doesnt have the depth.
Think of your mix as 3 dimensional. If there is no depth then the width will be more apparent.
Think that might be what you were meaning. Or am I totally wrong. :)

Eck
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That actually makes some sence. I don't know if i'd say they are "flat" but i would exactly call them dynamic either. Probably more on the flat side though. Maybe we are on to something here.
 
Airy and wide are sometimes used to define phase issues. Most likely channel inversion or crossover distortion.
Do you use an excessive amount of EQ?
Do you have your monitoring system correctly set-up. Such as positive to positive, neg to neg for both speakers, and each speaker equally far from your head at ~ear level?
Are you mixing through headphones?
Do you use some of the "mastering" software, such as T-racks. And use the "widen" (ie suck) knob?

Maybe post us a clip of a good example of the sound you are getting.
 
talontsiawd said:
Would posting up something help? Maybe a mix i feel is average of my capibilities?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think that'll be necessary. As you can see, we are all swinging in the dark here trying to guess what those adjectives actually mean. A lot of good ideas here, but no clue as to which ones might actually be applicable to your situation.

The best way to diagnose this patient is to get the patient off the telephone and into the doctor's office ;) :).

G.
 
hi-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=4993159&q=hi
hi-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=4993411&q=hi

I guess these are about what i'd call an average "good" mix for me. Good relative to my skills.




My moniters are set up correctly, however my room is not symetical, i don't know what to do to take that into account. I have 703 pannels in the tri corners, i don't have room for any more (bed room). Eq-I don't know if it's excessive, let me know :) . No "mastering," no processing to the final stereo mix.
 
lol, that bad? I know it's not great but some hope? Don't pay attention to the $50 lease, i didn't post my stuff up in the first place because i'm not trying to advertise here. Any advice, tips, tricks, wrong parts on my side, etc, is greatly apprciated. And be harsh, just back it up with some wisdom if you want to go that route ;) :D
 
I think the biggest problem is on your drum machine track!
I like your songs (even though it’s not my cup of tee).
I guess this rhythm track is intentionally in the front and that aloud but it seam to be not part of the rest.
It sounds like your music is on your stereo somewhere behind and you are having fun on some DJ machine and recording it simultaneously.
That forces everything to seam like it is flat 'cause they don’t belong together and it’s difficult to feel dynamics.

Just a thought!
No offence. I don’t have real monitors so I probably don’t see the real picture.
 
Biggest problem with not getting great results with this style of music is the samples. Simple. Get great samples and your mixes will have the pottential of sounding great.
I know what you are saying about this mix. It is a bit flat as I was saying earlier before listening. Im a mind reader btw. :)

The snare pops out the most. It could do with some reverb as it doesnt seem to sit in the mix. Maybe too loud for this mix as its taking all my attention!
Could be slight level issues that arent making your mixes sound the quality you want them to.

Peace,
Eck
 
Through my computer speakers...

Lacking bottom end. If it's there it's too deep with nothing higher up to bring it forward on small speakers.

Drums too up-front and dry.

It's all rather trebly. It's not harsh (and that's a good thing) but it's all up there in the high frequencies.

Basically, I think that the real reason they sound flat because the arrangements are flat. There's not enough verse-chorus feel to the instrumentation and there's nothing that says "Wake up at the back! Listen to this!"

"Bring it back" is a bit bland and repetitive. The chinky piano breaks that eventually but isn't really interesting enough. It's definitely not impeding my ability to concentrate on writing this.

"Top of the game" is better but again lacks a hook. In general it's a backing looking for a song. That's not being nasty - that's the biggest problem with most of my work! :(
 
Just to start, this is essential and example of a background track for a vocalist, not a complete song. I have a somewhat old school of thought with beats, give the rapper the power. So i'm content with the actual arrangements, as are the rappers i work with. Also, with hip hop, drums are more infront that what would be typical of other genras. And the bass is usually lower.

Now those aren't exuses, i just want to make sure people understand. That doesn't mean my drums arn't too up front. Or i don't have enough low or mid low end.

I'm kind of thinking that maybe that 400-800htz range might be one of my big issues. I don't low cut my samples at a specific place, it depends on the sample. But usually around 400, more or less. That's when the original sample starts to compete with the kick and the bass. That's where the lowend gets muddy. Which would also excentuate the high end, i would assume. Am i correct here? I don't know how to fill that region well, maybe layer basslines (one an octave higher), or layer the sample at a lower range an eq it to mesh better. Does this sound right to you guys?

I'll mess with my drums and see if i can keep their presence without necessarily the volume too, see how that works.

Thanks for the comments. This is defineatly helping me. Please feel free to add, correct me, etc.
 
I've absolutely no experience with making beats but I think you probably are cutting too much or maybe it's the original sample lacking midrange and that shows up when you cut the bass. I'd try to even out the EQ with a small low-Q cut on the highs or a small low-Q boost on the mids.

Again, with my computer speakers I can't hear your bass so it's either too quiet or it's lacking higher frequencies that they can reproduce.
 
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