Mix Engine Question

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Bob's Mods

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For those of you privileged enough to work with a variety of software apps do you find that there are big differences or little differences in mix engines?

I'm using Sonar 5 and it appears to the best mix engine they have done (having used a number of previous versions). I found they had this check box called "64 Bit Double Precision Engine" and check it and found that it futher improved the mix engine results for only another 1% hit in processor performance. Is there really much of a difference in mix engine performance between Nuendo, Saw, Sonar, ProTools, etc.?

Bob the Mod Guy
 
Absolutely.

The differences between samplitude, SAW, Cubase, and Nuendo were like night and day..

Thats why I own Sequoia and Samplitude. ;)
 
I have used several iterations of Cubase/Nuendo (they both use the same Cubase engine), several iterations of Sonic Foundry/Sony Vegas and Sound Forge, Wavelab, Cool Edit Pro and Audition (individually), and Cakewalk Guitar Tracks.

To my ears, the Steinberg and Sonic/Sony stuff are virtually indistinguishable and the best in sound of the bunch. CEP/Audition is just a taste "duller" or more veiled sounding, and GT2 (admitedlly an older iteration) even more veiled yet.

This is all PC platform based. It sounds like you might be looking more for Mac information, but since you didn't specify, I threw my 2 Drachmas in.

G.
 
Also, there's good proof in the digital large format console scene, too.


For example, I was reading some pretty interesting stuff on the Euphonix series of digital consoles and the mix engines in those seem to get a pretty good play. However, it's only been a few days since I've really dug into that information, so I hope to be better versed in it soon. :D

That's extra info though. I'm just interested in finding out where these digital consoles can potentially end up and how the future is looking for the analog vs digital console battle.
 
So how does Sonar 5 fit into all of this, one of the lower guys on the totem pole I guess?
 
I don't know. So far no Sonar users have responded. I can't comment because I have never used Sonar, and it sounds like Big Ray may not have either.

G.
 
I thought they were coinage from some planet that was visited by Capt Kirk and Mr. Spock.
 
Bob's Mods said:
I thought they were coinage from some planet that was visited by Capt Kirk and Mr. Spock.
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you may be right

it could be drachme I'm thinking of either way you're knackered when it comes to shopping for the week & all you've got is a drachma or a drachme

it's just not logical cap'n

beam me up Scotty (good ol' scot ;) )
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I don't know. So far no Sonar users have responded. I can't comment because I have never used Sonar, and it sounds like Big Ray may not have either.

G.
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I use both Sonar and Cubase SX. I have yet to be able to detect a difference between the engines recording and playing back several straight waves (no pkugins, effects, etc).

I have not used Samplitude. I may play with the demo to see what Big Ray is creaming over, but I suspect it's just his fetish du jour :)

Then again, I use a dynamic mic on my horn when playing live, so what do I know?
 
slidey said:
totally off topic BUT are drachmas coins from the time of alexander the grape (I mean great)???
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You're right, way off topic :D. Drachmas were the Greek currency until they adoped the Euro, I think. Would it have been better if I said Ducats, Shekels or Birrs? ;)

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You're right, way off topic :D. Drachmas were the Greek currency until they adoped the Euro, I think. Would it have been better if I said Ducats, Shekels or Birrs? ;)

G.
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ducats, shekels, birrs. all sound like they grow in a forest or starnge exotic garden :p

never heard of any of them (man I feel dumb sometimes :rolleyes: )
 
To say that Samlitude or Sequoia blows away the sound of Cubase and Nuendo is absolutely absurd and completely misinformed. Besides the fact that they just are not necessarily that different, how the hell can you tell? How can you say for everyone else what "better" is? What scientific tests have been done between the different programs? It's like testing preamps. You can't just sing the track 6 times through differnt preamps and say which one is better. Each performance will be slightly differnt. Often times that slight difference between takes is as much as the difference in sonic signatures of the hardware. Personally, to say something that "bold" is just a misinformed and unreasonable defense of your own purchase. I personally have been trying Samplitude over the years for probably 5 different versions so far. I have also tried Vegas, Sonar, Audition, Cool Edit etc... I chose Cubase. Is it because one is better than the other? Certainly not. The features are all too similar. People say they like Samplitude because the layout is simple and intuitive., But then I have heard some people say the same about Logic. This is ALL a bunch of crap. Of all of the programs I have used, Cubase and Nuendo are laid out in the most intuitive manor..... at least for MY workflow. This is the key here.....MY WORKFLOW. If Samplitude happens to be the one that you are most familiar with and take to, then use it. If it is Sonar, then use it. However, to pretend that one is actually better than the other is pure idiocy in my opinion. I have kindly refrained from commenting in the Samplitude LE thread because my comments and opinions would not really contribute anything towards that thread and it's specific direction. In return, I would hope that we could maybe keep all of the alternative software superiority complexes out of this thread, unless there is actually some sort of evidence to back it up.

Long story short.... some of the programs mix engines do probably sound better than some others... depending on what each individual listeners version of sounds better is. It's not however going to be like the difference between a $4000 mic and a $150 mic. The differences will be subtle, and most often could be attributed to the way a program handles itself internally, not necessarily the math of the mix engine.
 
get it up ye Xstatic (enjoy yer meal there LOL)

I found logic to be a pernickety mind fuck for my "workflow" as you said there & I now use protools almost exclusively (COS I'M BROKE OK) nah seriously if there are any differences they are very small & I've heard results from allsorts that have cut the cake

I find protools very analog in environment feel, & almost idiot proof to use where as logic just tends to wind me up (we have L6pro & Ptools Ctrl24 mix+)

I will be using cubase for the 1st time soon on a laptop PC to teach somebody dislexic how to use the programme to record voice overs amongst other things for his viodeos. The only problem is I need to learn a bit about the basics of it before I can teach him anything. I may end up yelling for help yet
 
fraserhutch said:
II have not used Samplitude. I may play with the demo to see what Big Ray is creaming over, but I suspect it's just his fetish du jour :)
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Try it my son :p , you will see what the hype is about. It is fantastic! no lie! This isnt a fetish du jour, but a long love affair. Ive used saw, cubase, nuendo, etc. I used wavelab before that, but it just wasnt cutting it with multitrack.

you can probably buy pro v6 on ebay and then upgrade to pro v8.If you choose to go that route..


However, to pretend that one is actually better than the other is pure idiocy in my opinion

Im willing to bet that you dont make much money off your opinions. ;)


To say that Samlitude or Sequoia blows away the sound of Cubase and Nuendo is absolutely absurd and completely misinformed. Besides the fact that they just are not necessarily that different, how the hell can you tell? How can you say for everyone else what "better" is? What scientific tests have been done between the different programs? It's like testing preamps

It isnt just my thought...they ARE that different.Whether you believe or not is irrelevant.... I make good money doing what I do, and have the experience from 20+ years as a classicall musician tuning my ears to the most subtle of differences.but... Obviously when I say they are better I am speaking from my own perspective. No revelations there.


you saying that there are not differences does not make it a reality.


I will see if I can dig up the post(s) referencing this.. .

and watch with the namecalling. Thanks.


When making a profound statement from atop your lofty place, with the purpose of enlightening those who have been led astray by the wiles of the Audio Villan, 'tis prudent to not misspell, for risk of being discredited...
 
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SouthSIDE Glen said:
You're right, way off topic :D. Drachmas were the Greek currency until they adoped the Euro, I think. Would it have been better if I said Ducats, Shekels or Birrs? ;)

G.
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Quatlouse...I do know that was a denomination on one of planets Capt Kirk stumbled on to. He was held prisoner there. I think that was the one where he kissed Ahoura.
 
When I say "mix engine", I am refering to the ability of the app to decern track to track definition. So there is an obvious difference between the lower end apps and the really high end stuff? I find that most differences in gear and software is small (general statement here), its the sum total of using the really good stuff where these small improvements in each sum and shine (and vise vera).

Bob the Mod Guy
 
What would a test methodology be? I'd guess there are two basic issues: improper handling of internal overs, and just outright flawed math. I'd be surprised if a modern DAW had the latter.

The problem is defining a control mix, but perhaps if we postulate that any degradation that exists would tend to increase with number of tracks, we could compare each program's performance internally.

So take a simple 2 track mix and compare to a mix of x amount of the same two tracks, with master bus attenuation as necessary to bring the mix back to the 2 track mix level. Then compare the resulting mixes?

Thoughts?
 
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