Minidisc recording/mics

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Slackmaster2K

Slackmaster2K

Gone
Not all of this fits into this forum, but here goes.

I got this idea see, to sell my dusty old Fostex X-26 4 track machine and buy a portable minidisc recorder (walkman style). I want to use it to gather samples from the wild with reasonable quality. By reasonable quality, I mean I'd like the samples to be usable in a digital recording...low noise. The times I used my X-26 (don't ask how), the samples I got sounded like absolute shit, mostly because of tape noise, but also because the recorder just sucks.

1) What kind of microphones are available for minidisc recorders, and what kind of quality can I expect? I mean, if it's going to sound like a cheap computer mic plugged into an old soundblaster...maybe this isn't what I want to do. I guess QUIET is my top priority, which I suppose has more to do with the minidisc pre.

2) I had this thought to use Harvey's 9V battery phantom power supply to power an ECM8000, and run the mic into the minidisc recorder using a cable that defeats the minidisc mic input's phantom power. Would this work? How can I find out if it would work?

3) Will the average Sony walkman style minidisc recorder work for me? Or will the mic pre be hissy and irritating? If it won't work, are there portable mic preamps out there that will sound better?

4) I saw this stereo omni mic for a minidisc...it said it would "plug into any minidisc recorder". However, the mic input on a minidisc recorder is mono....so what's that all about?

Slackmaster 2000
 
Mini-discs suck.

The fact that they are tiny and portable is good.. but because of the reduction in size, the audio is compressed quite a bit (similar to mp3) and IMO quality suffers greatly.. especially high end.
 
I know. I am talking about sample gathering...ambient noises...traffic....water...etc. Not recording music.

Slackmaster 2000
 
I have a walkman-style minidisc recorder and here are some quick impressions:

Not all MD's have built in mics. Thus, you may end up using an external mic.

Some MD's had a stereo jack mic input. Thus, you could use stereo mics with them. They often also have line level inputs.

You may achieve "adequate" sound quality from a simple unpowered condensor straight into the mic input. It will be an improvement over a tape deck. I.e., it will have a better S/N, it will have better fidelity, and it will be stored on a better medium.

To obtain better results, you may want to consider your option #2 with the 9V power supply and a decent condensor. The MD recorder does not have phantom power that you need to defeat. If you end up using an external preamp of some sort, you can run it into the line level input of the MD recorder.

I can't (won't) comment on the quality of the digital compression. I purchased mine years ago when it was the best alternative to a portable cassette recorder. I do not use it for high end recording purposes.


-B
 
BBB, all the minidisc mics I'm seeing are electret, implying that the microphone port must supply at least low voltage phantom power (purhaps similar to a soundcard mic port).

After discussing this with Ed, I'm not sure that I can use the phantom power box and the ECM8000, because most likely the MD mic port will send power over one of the hot leads, so it can't be defeated by snipping the cable or anything. Comments?

Slackmaster 2000
 
http://www.independentaudio.com/soundman/soundman1.html

A friend of mine own this company here in Maine.

He tells these headphone style microphones are used for exactly what your refering to. Apparently they are very good sounding and you wear them like walkman earbuds. I guess bootleggers are also now using them in conjunction with minidiscs at concerts, as they look like headphones instead of microphones. Broadcasting is also using them for doing in the field interviews etc.. no more holding out a mic- they just have a conversation and it gets picked up.

Sorry don't know the cost- follow the trail..

DAN
 
timothydog said:
Mini-discs suck.

The fact that they are tiny and portable is good.. but because of the reduction in size, the audio is compressed quite a bit (similar to mp3) and IMO quality suffers greatly.. especially high end.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the birlliant deduction. Do you have any more gems of information that everyone doesn't know already?
 
1) All of the mics I've seen for mini disks are the small electrect mics. You should be able to capture sounds from nature with pretty good quality.

2) I dont know yet. I'll find out tongiht.

3) It will work. I'll send you a minidisk recording tonight made in my house.

4) Omni Stereo, with a mono plug. hehe.
 
Minni disk rocks!

I have a portable sharp mini disk, i use it for recording samples from vcrs, mixes, i used to plug a 57 in and record a hole band practice, but its in mono( disc are 74 mins!) Im currentlly looking for a good stereo mic for it. SONY has this stereo mic made especcially for the MD ,musicians friend has it for$100-includes carring case and 10 md.
MY minni disk is not noisey at all.
 
detuned, how does the stereo mic work with the mono mic input on the MD? Is it digital?

Slackmaster 2000
 
At Last a Subject I Know Something About!

Slackmaster,

I'm thrilled that I can finally answer a question asked here that's not about music or sound playback!

1.) Portable minidisc recorders do not provide any sort of phantom power whatsoever -- that's a non-issue.

2.) All consumer-level portable minidisc recorder/players have a stereo mini-plug input and built-in "mic preamps" (similar to an inexpensive cassette recorder).

3.) The inputs on most minidisc players will take the output from powered mics (usually battery-powered for portability).

4.) The Sony inputs tend to be "hot" and work best with Sony mics for that reason, or so I'm told -- no experience there.

5.) Scottish singer/songwriter Martin Stephenson mastered an entire (and beautiful) compact disc using nothing but a Sony MZR-70 (the single most mass-produced minidisc player/recorder ever made, I think, and supposedly not that great compared to newer units) and an $85 Sony stereo mic the size of your thumb, the ECM-907. Both are available in droves on ebay. A clip from Martin's album and the accompanying interview with him is what tipped me over to buying a minidisc deck.

Go to minidisc.org, look under a section called something like "cool uses," and select the interview with Martin Stephenson. Download the 3 MB mp3 clip of his song "Benngarick" and THEN tell me if you think consumer-level Minidisc isn't "good enough" for what you have in mind! :-)) Read his comments in the short interview, too; you'll be glad you did.

6.) The biggest complaint about the Sony portables for live recording is that you cannot ride the gain. Everyone in the minidisc world has been complaining about that for years. They finally JUST listened, and the latest unit (available only as an import direct from Japan, the 909) has that capability, although clumsily so.

7.) Most live recordists prefer the Sharp brand units, because they allow gain adjustment during recording -- but check the specs on the specific model. Sharp recorder/players sell for as little as $130 brand new (for instance, at Buy.com -- their only minidisc unit). I have no idea how the sound is on the Sharp units.

8.) Sony is more reliable than Sharp -- another teeth-grinder for the Minidisc community, considering the above. Everyone wants Sony quality with Sharp features.

9.) You cannot record and walk around, unless you have a very steady hand. It's a manufacturer's myth, and you won't know till you're done how many skips you have. Most folks say the unit has to be on a stable surface to record at all -- no dancing while recording BS.

10.) A professional field capture deck costs $1000 (the Marantz) and eats batteries for breakfast. The top-of-the-line portable minidisc (HHb Portadisc) is fabulous and available from B&H in New York for about $1299, but a few professional recordists are saying it has a software glitch that causes it to lock up once in awhile. This absolutely killed it for guys who make their living capturing sound, and I'm sure HHb is scrambling to remedy it. The high prices on these two decks reflect the fact that they have XLR inputs with phantom power and good mic preamps built in.

11.) There is one way to get around having to use the A/D converter in a portable minidisc recorder: Denecke still offers the now-defunct Zefiro "In Box" for about $329. It is a combination portable mic preamp and 20 bit A/D converter. It allows you to run a toslink digital cable into your portable instead of an analog signal. Since portable minidisc recorder/players are actually designed to receive digital input (copied from CDs) 99.99% of the time, they all have this capability. Most people will NEVER use the live recording function, which is why Sony has been able to blow off gain-riding capability for so long.

12.) A great place for more information about the Denecke unit and portable, battery powered stereo mics is Core Sound. Len Moskowitz is a great guy and a portable recordist's hero. Check out the info on his site.

13.) A step down from Core Sound but still innovative and extremely useful are the Sound Professionals, who sell more portable battery powered mics than anyone else. Minidisco.com sells their mics as well, but you might as well deal direct.

14.) Core Sound and the Sound Professionals both sell cables (if I recall correctly) that take care of the problem of matching good mics to portable minidiscs (XLR balanced to unbalanced right-angle mini-stereo plug). Call Len Moskowitz and ask him whether you can use the phantom-powered omni with a consumer-level minidisc player -- I know the answer is yes, but Len can tell you what it takes and sell you the right cable, if you wish.

15.) Core sound also carries the ATI portable mic preamp that is supposed to be excellent, if you want to feed your portable minidisc recorder an analog signal. Without a doubt, the weakest link in portable minidisc recorders is their mic preamps, since they don't expect anyone to use them.

Even given the limitations of the Sony units (gain has to be adjusted in pause mode) and the low price of their little ECM907 mic with M/S capability (!), and the fact that everyone says the Sound Professionals and Core Sound powered mics are much better, I think the Martin Stephenson clip will amaze you as much as it did me.

The thought of his being able to put an entire recording studio in the palm of his hand (or in a zippered compartment of his guitar case), hiking up to a centuries-old stone church where he liked the natural acoustic, and recording an entire album with $300 worth of equipment in four hours, is mind-boggling. Anyone who says Minidisc is crap has to be comparing it to something much, much better. Listen for yourself, I say.

Best wishes,

Mark H.
 
How does a stereo mic assembly work on a mono recorder......
Doesn't make any sense to me.....

Or are there 2 mic inputs on this little thing?


(Never seen one before, so Im not familiar with these units..)
 
I opened up my reply post box before Slackmaster made his last post there.....

I Typed my reply, and went for a piss, then came back and I hit submit button.... and he beat me!

:D

BG
 
Mono capability of MDs

Slack, I also forgot to mention that MDs are infintely re-recordable and achieve double-length recording in mono. Check to make sure any portable recorder you consider has mono capability.

The latest "thing" is MDLP (Minidisc long play), which gives you 2x and 4x stereo recording capability. However, it means the level of compression is effectively doubled and quadrupled, so no one serious about recording is using this "feature." For cheap, portable tunes, however, it does give MP3 players a run for your money.

I just bought 52 TDK 80-minute Lucir MDs from MD Passion in Florida for $94.50 delivered by Priority Mail. (The 2 extras were a gift.) For voice recordings, they'll give me 160 minutes each of uninterrupted recording.

Mark H.
 
Detuned6 is right. Timdog isn't. Minidisks are great. The sound is so usable that Bjork used samples from her minidisc on her lastest album. The trick is to get a mic that doesn't plug right into the minidisk, like mine does LOL cuz then it picks up the noise of the machinery in the box. Get a mic with an extension cord.

The mic I've got is a little T-shaped stereo mic that cost about $45. It's better than my ears, ie - it picks up more than I can hear with my ears. Loads of detail.

Do it. Just get one.

Then teach me how to make usable samples and loop them using Cool Edit LOL.
 
Ok, I think Mark's got my questions answered here....maybe.

If I buy something like the Sony R37 or R70, it's going to have a stereo mic jack for sure? And it doesn't deliver any voltage at all? If so, with an adapter I can maybe use harvey's 9V battery phantom power supply box and use any mic I want...assuming that the gain on the pre is high enough?

I'm very excited...I'm seeing these units on ebay for under 100 bucks. Thanks Mark!

Slackmaster 2000
 
Dobro, can you shoot me the man/model of that mic?

Slackmaster 2000
 
Check the Minidisc.org site for specs on virtually every unit ever made, but guaranteed the MZR-70 will have a stereo mini plug input and absolutely no electricity running back up the line. The XLR coming out of your power box needs to terminate in a right-angle mini-stereo plug. Check out the little power boxes at Core Sound and Sound Professionals, and you'll get the idea. Harvey could also tell you how to design your homebrew power box to use an OUTPUT on mini-plug or RCA, if it's easier or cheaper to build/buy, OR better yet (if you use it just for MD), how to wire the box so that you don't need ANY output connector, just an ouput wire that terminates in the required mini-plug.

I have never understood summing, however, and I'm nervous about our friend Ammeth's "he he" at the end of point 4. You may need an active box to split a mono input into 2 channels --- ?????

Mark H.
 
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