Miking Jazz Band and LDCM question

[jeaston]

I will be recording our acoustic jazz band, which is typically composed of grand piano, string bass, tenor saxophone, trumpet. We typically play in a relatively small room, and while I will be making no attempt to isolate instruments I may use more than 2 mikes so that no one is underrecorded. Will be going into a tube preamp/phantom power unit and then into the Tascam 788 digital recorder.

I have gotten advice so far that has led me to the large diaphragm condensers as the best option for recording the room sound. I have purchased 4 mikes, with the intention of testing them out and returning the ones I don't want (and buying more of the kind I like). I don't want to go over $325 per mike. The 4 mikes I have here right now are the Rode NT-1, the NT-2, the AT 4033, and (for the hell of it since it's $99) the Nady SCM900.

So far, I have recorded myself playing the piano into all 4 mikes simultaneously, with each mike running to a different track. When I listen back using Sony MDR 7506 headphones I really can't hear the difference between these 4 mikes. I assume I must be doing something wrong.

Any suggestions for mike selection and for techniques I can use to hear the difference between these mikes would be much appreciated.

Thank you in advance,
Jon E.

 

[The Axis]

Did you like what you heard ?

Try playing it back through a monitoring system other than headphones also, fo another reference.

 

[jeaston]

Yes, Axis, I liked what I heard. I just made another recording (NT-1, NT-2, 4033, skipped the Nady) and played it back through an Onkyo integrated amp and Boston A100 speakers. Still, could barely discern differences. I am thinking that the differences might indeed be minor ones in this price range of mike, in which case I will be inclined to go with the NT-1's since they are cheaper. I have noticed some threads on this board from the past in which not too different conclusions were reached.

For my recording purposes, is there really a need for the bass rolloff switch that the NT2 and the 4033 have?

Thank you for your reply.
Jon E.

 

[lemonsucker]

jazz?
if pissing your pants is cool than call me miles davis.

 

[jeaston]

Lemonsucker--thank you for your response, although I have no idea what it means.

I have done some more testing and find that these bass rolloff switches actually make a big difference--especially if I pound the floor with my foot, in which case the NT-1 picks up tons of rumbling sound, while the NT-2 and 4033 with their rolloff switches on do not do so. The 4033 picked up the least, to my ear. I even put the NT-1 into the 4033's shockmount, but it still picked up lots of rumbling noise when I pounded the floor.

Question: do these bass rolloff switches detract from the quality of the bass-end recording spectrum??

Thank you.

 

[kristian]

The bass roll off switches are made by the manufacturers to comensate for the proximity bass effect in cardiod mode. the closer a source is to the mic the more bass it has especially within less then 3 feet, and anywhere 6 inches up to it you get A LOT of bass. So in effect it doesnt ruin the response, just tailors it.

Some ideas, if you had a pair of the same mic you could stereo mic in fron of the performance, but since you are in a small room, this isnt totally possible. If you are going to attempt it, i recomend the ORTF technique ( i think this is how its done and called... pretty sure).. You take the two capsule and make them at and angle of 110 degrees from eachother, then you make sure there is 17cms between the center of the two capsules. its really nice stereo seperation.

but you say you are using 4 mics? one for each instrument?

 

[jeaston]

Thank you, Kristian. Very helpful. I think I will indeed use two mikes to try to get a room sound, but use additional mikes into additional channels so that I will be able to mix those channels in as necessary to compensate for underrecording of certain instruments or room areas. Obviously I haven't figured this out yet, but I bought the Tascam 788 digital recorder rather than a DAT so that I'd have the possibility of recording more tracks and worry about a mix later. Any other thoughts are appreciated. Thanks again.

Jon E.

 

[James HE]

here are my suggestions

try the mics you have on the horns if possible, see which one you like the best, but don't rule out dynamic mics for the horns. Consider the dynamics of the group. In your mix, the horns may be better off being more isolated, so that if, say you need to turn up the trumpet, you won't be turning up the piano. this is true for all the instruments, but the horns being more or less lead instruments, the isolation will help you control them better. When you take a piano solo or something like that the horns would probably be laying back, same for the bass, so not much danger if you turned up the those tracks. So I'll suggest you try dynamic mics on the horns if you mic them individually, because they are less sensitive.

The NT-1 is pretty decent for upright. try it 2 feet from the body pointing at one of the f-holes. The NT-1 is overly succeptable to off-axis resonse, so be sure to get the positioning right. I haven't used the other mics on bass so I can't really say that the NT-1 is better, but I have gotten a good sound out of it on upright. In a live situation for better isolation you may have to position it closer to the body.

For the Grand. I haven't had the opportunity to record a piano, I can't help you out too much there.

All that said, there are lots of different means to go about this with a four mic setup.

you could close mic each instrument. (my mic choices here are mostly gut reactions so take then with a grain of salt) NT-1 or NT-2 on the bass, NT-2 or AT4033 on piano. AT4033, Nady SCM900, or (insert dynamic mic here) for each horn. or...

stereo mic the piano, 2 AT4033's or 2 NT-2's. Nt-1 or NT-2 on the bass. One condensor shared by the horns.

more of a live ensamble feel. Form a circle with the players. 2 NT-2's in omni mode in the middle of the players. And two room mics. for example an NT-1 lower between the bass and piano. (I've had luck with the Nt-1 as a room mic when it's close to the floor, nice presence on the low end, your room may vary ) and maybe another NT-1 (or any of your choices) higher in the room and farther away between the horn and piano. This is just an idea. I could see myself going about doing this in this way. i like sort of quirky mic tecniques. I've tracked a live show with an NT-1 low on one side of the stage (which ever the bass cab is on), an AT small condensor the opposite side but over head, and a mono feed from the house mixer with the vocals and kick. I ended up with a cool stereo field. It fit the music well, the group was drums, two guitars, bass, and flute- pretty intresting.

well I hope I've been of some help. I hope that things go well for you.

-jhe

 

[jeaston]

Thank you, James HE. Very helpful. I see I am in for some experimentation.

Jon E.

 

[Roel]

jazz?
if pissing your pants is cool than call me miles davis.

I think he means, that he would be as cool as Miles, if you considered his wet pants as being cool... Hmmm... Strange...

 

[FBstdminime]

billy peed his pants

The pissing pants Miles Davis thing is a quote from Adam Sandler's movie "Billy Madison". It is hilarious.

 

[charger]

small diaphragm?

Have you considered small diaphragm condenser mics? Check out the AKG C1000s and the Rode NT3, well within your price range and in a room micing situation, or as stereo pairs, these mics give great results.

 

[jeaston]

Thank you, charger. My sources thus far have steered me to large diaphragm condensers for miking this situation. Why would small diaphragm condensers be as good or better? Thanks.

 

[charger]

Good question. Although I have only used small diaphragm condensers for drum overheads, micing acoustics guitars, and drum room tone mics, I have found them to be great for these purposes. The main difference between a small diaphragm and a large diaphragm condenser (besides size_ and someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is the low-end frequency response. They tend to roll off the bass a little, down below 40-50 Hz, due to the smaller mic elements (usually a .75" diaphragm compared to a 1" diaphragm). Why this is desirable in a mic, and why they are used so often as overheads and room mics is a mystery to me, but I know they work great for it. In a noisy room, there is going to be a fair amount of rumble down below the 50Hz area, the same thing that is cut when you turn on the low frequency rollof switch on the LDCM. Since you're rolling off the LDCM, you might try some small diaphragms for the same effect.

Good results can also be achieved with a PZM or boundary mic, which will give you a whole different result, some LDCMs, and some SDCMs. For example, you might find a good, fairly balanced spot in the room, throw up a pair of SDCMs in an x-y stereo pair, then "spot" mic with two LDCMs, for example, near the quieter instrument areas (probably away from the drum kit)--maybe a spot mic near the piano and the sax, and even one near the bass too, then try throwing up a PZM mic on a wall. I realize this exceeds your 4 mic allocation... you can also get similar results with a stereo pair of sdcms/ldcms, and 2 other spot mics. just remember to check for phasing, which you'll hear when you add a mic, bring it up in the mix, and then things get quieter. when this happens, either move the mic around to fix it, or flip the polarity fo the mic negative if your preamp/mixer allows it.

 

[jeaston]

Thank you, Charger. You say: "In a noisy room, there is going to be a fair amount of rumble down below the 50Hz area, the same thing that is cut when you turn on the low frequency rollof switch on the LDCM. Since you're rolling off the LDCM, you might try some small diaphragms for the same effect." I would most definitely be interested to know whether or not those ideas are accurate, since I expect to be recording in rooms where use of the bass rolloff switch might be desirable due to people walking around or perhaps tapping their feet etc on wooden floors. Is it true that there's no point to using a large diaphragm condenser if you expect always to use the bass rolloff???

 

[Tom Hicks]

If your stands lack that "spiderweb" shockmount,try this cheapo workaround.Suspend the mikes from the ceiling on bungy cords.That will isolate them from the floor and kill the rumble.

Tom