MIDI set up latency help!

[robgreen]

Not sure whether to post this in digital recording & computers, keyboards, Ableton or here...Anyway, I got a new Roland a-500 pro keyboard recently and I'm struggling a little with latency on Ableton. All the audio is fine, but there's a definite lag on playing the keyboard which connects through USB.

The problem I'm finding is that both the Ableton and Roland manuals are written in some kind of technical language that I'm really struggling to get any kind of grip on. There are lots of settings that may or may not be related to compensating for latency, but I'm just randomly moving them around without any insight in the hope that I'll stumble upon the sweet spot. I'm hoping someone can at least point me in the right directing to demystifying this problem.

As I say, I'm on Ableton 5, the driver is ASIO, the soundcard is an E-MU PCI. There are quite a few options that could possibly relate to latency on ableton, but I just can't disentangle them either by experimentation or referring to the manual.

There's a section under audio devices that lets me set the 'ASIO Buffer latency' - anything below 20ms makes the sound all glitchy and broken, the next setting above that is 50ms.

There's something to do with 'overall latency', but I don't know what the two numbers next to the one that I can edit relate to

On the MIDI/sync menu there's a whole host of options that I can toggle on/off, delays to MIDI Sync, MIDI Timecode/smpte & Remote control surfaces. I have no idea what any of this means.

Here are a couple of screenshots to hopefully make a little more sense of the above. Can also provide any further info if needed to answer the problem. Would be massively grateful if someone can shed a little light of any sort:

Thanks in advance

 

[TASCAM MAN]

Not sure whether to post this in digital recording & computers, keyboards, Ableton or here...Anyway, I got a new Roland a-500 pro keyboard recently and I'm struggling a little with latency on Ableton. All the audio is fine, but there's a definite lag on playing the keyboard which connects through USB.

The problem I'm finding is that both the Ableton and Roland manuals are written in some kind of technical language that I'm really struggling to get any kind of grip on. There are lots of settings that may or may not be related to compensating for latency, but I'm just randomly moving them around without any insight in the hope that I'll stumble upon the sweet spot. I'm hoping someone can at least point me in the right directing to demystifying this problem.

As I say, I'm on Ableton 5, the driver is ASIO, the soundcard is an E-MU PCI. There are quite a few options that could possibly relate to latency on ableton, but I just can't disentangle them either by experimentation or referring to the manual.

There's a section under audio devices that lets me set the 'ASIO Buffer latency' - anything below 20ms makes the sound all glitchy and broken, the next setting above that is 50ms.

There's something to do with 'overall latency', but I don't know what the two numbers next to the one that I can edit relate to

On the MIDI/sync menu there's a whole host of options that I can toggle on/off, delays to MIDI Sync, MIDI Timecode/smpte & Remote control surfaces. I have no idea what any of this means.

Here are a couple of screenshots to hopefully make a little more sense of the above. Can also provide any further info if needed to answer the problem. Would be massively grateful if someone can shed a little light of any sort:

Thanks in advance

Get you a stand alone digital recorder and never have LATENCY problems again

 

[robgreen]

Well that would certainly be another way of looking at the solution, but an expensive one. I rather like ableton.

I'd ask if there's any particular brand of stand alone you recommend, but I suspect I already have a hunch...

 

[TASCAM MAN]

Well that would certainly be another way of looking at the solution, but an expensive one. I rather like ableton.

I'd ask if there's any particular brand of stand alone you recommend, but I suspect I already have a hunch...

Well your hunch would probably be right as Im not ashamed of the fact that all (most at least) I have ever used in recording gear was/is Tascam.

 

[gecko zzed]

Get you a stand alone digital recorder and never have LATENCY problems again

That sounds very much like running a way from a problem, rather than solving it!

Not sure whether to post this in digital recording & computers, keyboards, Ableton or here...Anyway, I got a new Roland a-500 pro keyboard recently and I'm struggling a little with latency on Ableton. All the audio is fine, but there's a definite lag on playing the keyboard which connects through USB.

The problem I'm finding is that both the Ableton and Roland manuals are written in some kind of technical language that I'm really struggling to get any kind of grip on. There are lots of settings that may or may not be related to compensating for latency, but I'm just randomly moving them around without any insight in the hope that I'll stumble upon the sweet spot. I'm hoping someone can at least point me in the right directing to demystifying this problem.

As I say, I'm on Ableton 5, the driver is ASIO, the soundcard is an E-MU PCI. There are quite a few options that could possibly relate to latency on ableton, but I just can't disentangle them either by experimentation or referring to the manual.

There's a section under audio devices that lets me set the 'ASIO Buffer latency' - anything below 20ms makes the sound all glitchy and broken, the next setting above that is 50ms.

There's something to do with 'overall latency', but I don't know what the two numbers next to the one that I can edit relate to

On the MIDI/sync menu there's a whole host of options that I can toggle on/off, delays to MIDI Sync, MIDI Timecode/smpte & Remote control surfaces. I have no idea what any of this means.

When I've experienced latency problems with midi, the usual cause is that the midi output is going to the Microsoft GS Wavetable. This happens from time to time (usually in Logic, but not Reaper) when somehow the output device gets reset to it.

I see in your pix that you don't have any midi output devices enabled. This may not matter if you are using VSTi. Is that the case? If you are getting latency with a VSTi, then there is something else going on that would need further investigation.

 

[TASCAM MAN]

Bro Im not running from nothing ,I just never liked the idea of computer recording. Digital "stand alone" recorders is much easier for ME to adapt to. I already have a hard enough time using a data dial and cursor in place of knobs. I never liked the idea of using straight computer and a mouse for recording and never will. To me, if computers give people so much trouble and takes a rocket scientist to record(I plainly see on the HR site)I will always stear away from DAW's as ya'll call them. And no I am not a sales person for Tascam but should/could be cause I cut my teeth on a 3340. But back to the topic of LATENCY issues,I stand by my statement plain and simple......solve your problem and get you a stand alone digital recorder

 

[robgreen]

Bro Im not running from nothing ,I just never liked the idea of computer recording. Digital "stand alone" recorders is much easier for ME to adapt to. I already have a hard enough time using a data dial and cursor in place of knobs. I never liked the idea of using straight computer and a mouse for recording and never will. To me, if computers give people so much trouble and takes a rocket scientist to record(I plainly see on the HR site)I will always stear away from DAW's as ya'll call them. And no I am not a sales person for Tascam but should/could be cause I cut my teeth on a 3340. But back to the topic of LATENCY issues,I stand by my statement plain and simple......solve your problem and get you a stand alone digital recorder

It's not a problem that's beyond my grasp with a DAW though, I just need to understand a bit more about the terminology and technology to tweak something.

I've been using DAWs fine recording mainly audio, and to be honest they're pretty easy to set up and get recording with to be honest - just that MIDI is all pretty new to me at present. Ableton enables a lot more than I could do with a standalone, just what I find.

When I've experienced latency problems with midi, the usual cause is that the midi output is going to the Microsoft GS Wavetable. This happens from time to time (usually in Logic, but not Reaper) when somehow the output device gets reset to it.

I see in your pix that you don't have any midi output devices enabled. This may not matter if you are using VSTi. Is that the case? If you are getting latency with a VSTi, then there is something else going on that would need further investigation.

Thanks Gecko, your post triggered a couple of thoughts and I think I've worked out the issues:

1. The keyboard is plugged in via a USB at the front which may be creating some latency - my soundcard has attachments to plug directly into it via MIDI cables rather than routing all around the computer. Need to get some of these and find out.

2. The sound gets all glitchy when I turn the latency settings on the ASIO driver below around 50ms and there's a few things going on in the mix. Thinking this could be a RAM issue as I don't have much on the PC. Will get an upgrade.

3. Lag seems more pronounced when using freeware VSTs than the Ableton inbuilt ones - probably a VST quality issue.

Thanks muchly for taking the time

 

[gecko zzed]

1. The keyboard is plugged in via a USB at the front which may be creating some latency - my soundcard has attachments to plug directly into it via MIDI cables rather than routing all around the computer. Need to get some of these and find out.

I've got a keyboard that has USB and midi outs. I have USB connected to PC, and a midi cable going from keyboard to interface (PreSonus). In Reaper I can select one or the other, and using either has not caused any problems. It is worth a try using midi cables direct. However, I don't think that is where your problem lies. Midi data is very sparse and is not really affected by CPU, RAM or much of anything else.

2. The sound gets all glitchy when I turn the latency settings on the ASIO driver below around 50ms and there's a few things going on in the mix. Thinking this could be a RAM issue as I don't have much on the PC. Will get an upgrade.

It could be a RAM issue, or it could be a CPU issue. Some VSTs are hungrier than others. You might need to think about what else is running at the time. Do you have any background programs going (such as virus checkers, screensavers and so on). These are not so much an issue on contemporary machines, but if you have an older, slower machine they may cause you grief.

3. Lag seems more pronounced when using freeware VSTs than the Ableton inbuilt ones - probably a VST quality issue.

Possibly a VST quality issue. Some are better written than others, and some are leaner than others. However, irrespective of which DAW you use, most VSTs should work ok. I hope an Ableton user can shed some light on this. My recent experience is with Reaper, and I too use a lot of freeware VSTs. But they all seem to work ok.

All-in-all, I don't think I've helped you any further along.

 

[robgreen]

Thanks anyway gecko. I think I'm going to work through these three regardless and see where I am after (my PC is very old, about 10 years and the RAM ain't very big).

If I can upgrade my own knowledge midi terminology, I should be better off too...

 

[SysExJohn]

Not sure whether to post this in digital recording & computers, keyboards, Ableton or here...Anyway, I got a new Roland a-500 pro keyboard recently and I'm struggling a little with latency on Ableton. All the audio is fine, but there's a definite lag on playing the keyboard which connects through USB.

The problem I'm finding is that both the Ableton and Roland manuals are written in some kind of technical language that I'm really struggling to get any kind of grip on. There are lots of settings that may or may not be related to compensating for latency, but I'm just randomly moving them around without any insight in the hope that I'll stumble upon the sweet spot. I'm hoping someone can at least point me in the right directing to demystifying this problem.

As I say, I'm on Ableton 5, the driver is ASIO, the soundcard is an E-MU PCI. There are quite a few options that could possibly relate to latency on ableton, but I just can't disentangle them either by experimentation or referring to the manual.

There's a section under audio devices that lets me set the 'ASIO Buffer latency' - anything below 20ms makes the sound all glitchy and broken, the next setting above that is 50ms.

There's something to do with 'overall latency', but I don't know what the two numbers next to the one that I can edit relate to

On the MIDI/sync menu there's a whole host of options that I can toggle on/off, delays to MIDI Sync, MIDI Timecode/smpte & Remote control surfaces. I have no idea what any of this means.

Would be massively grateful if someone can shed a little light of any sort:

Thanks in advance

Some decoding for you.

SMPTE = the society of motion picture and television engineers.
With this switched on the timing information within a MIDI file is held in the format needed for synchronisation with film and television.
Leave this off unless you know you need it.

MTC = MIDI time code. Usually used for synchronisation with external devices like drum machines.
Leave this off unless you know you need it.

A remote control surface is, in essence, an external piece of hardware that can send MIDI controller signals to the software.
Often these are integrated into a "MIDI controller keyboard" which has anything from 25 to 88 keys plus loads of faders and knobs and switches.
Some DAW software manufacturers provide simple integration with the best known controllers.

The EMU PCI audio cards are of good quality. I own a PCI 1616m and also its PCMCIA equivalent in my laptop.
Their ASIO drivers are fine too. Make sure you have the latest version available from their web site.
Follow the installation instructions carefully.

When playing from a keyboard there are two factors involved, the incoming MIDI data stream, which is of very small volume (data wise) its slight delay (MIDI latency) in arriving in the computer, and another factor (with USB especially) known as jitter. Jitter means the delay is not always the same.

Using a MIDI lead direct into the MIDI port of your EMU card will probably reduce both of these factors to miniscule amounts.

The second factor is the amount of time the computer takes to generate the sound and to send it to the audio output. Audio latency.
This is usually the main factor in latency. Just how quickly can the computer do that job?
Then the sound, to use an analogy, has to be shovelled into buckets and carried to the audio card.
How many buckets are there and how much can each bucket carry? OR ... Number of buffers and buffer size.
Each bucket needs to be just the right size and arrive at the audio card just as the previous bucket has been emptied.
Otherwise stuttering is the result. It is always a case of "suck it and see" in setting these up.
In a slow computer any other process running will cause glitches too as they interrupt the buffer flow.

Overall latency usually refers to the complete round trip, in and back out again, of an audio signal.
The number of buffers and their size for the incoming audio data stream and then ditto to get it all back out again.
Important if you're trying to monitor the incoming audio data.
Usually replaced by a "direct monitor" facility on most audio cards.

Using the inbuilt MS GS sound set is not a good idea ... very slow.

When you're working on MIDI / audio:-
Disconnect from the Internet and switch off networking.
Then unload the firewall software.
Go to the magazine Sound-on-Sound and look up optimising windows XP for music (or some such).
It will tell you how to set your PC for optimum music playing.

This may well make a considerable difference.

Any help?
SysExJohn.