Mid-Side confusion

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Bulls Hit

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So I created a mono mix of my stereo 2-track, copied the stereo 2-track & panned left, with another copy phase inverted & panned right.

If I mute the left stereo track and play only the mono track with the phase inverted trackon the right, and I pan the inverted track back to the centre, the left channel disappears as expected. However what I didn't expect was for the vocals to disappear as well...? Have I just discovered the secret to karaoke?

The 2 vocal tracks were originally recorded mono, then panned slightly off centre. Why are only the vocals affected like this?
 
Actually I'm not sure I'm doing this properly. Are the sides supposed to be mono or stereo tracks?
 
Hey thanks. Is that your work? Nice link, very easy to understand
 
Bulls Hit said:
So I created a mono mix of my stereo 2-track, copied the stereo 2-track & panned left, with another copy phase inverted & panned right.

If I mute the left stereo track and play only the mono track with the phase inverted trackon the right, and I pan the inverted track back to the centre, the left channel disappears as expected. However what I didn't expect was for the vocals to disappear as well...? Have I just discovered the secret to karaoke?

The 2 vocal tracks were originally recorded mono, then panned slightly off centre. Why are only the vocals affected like this?

Hey Bull!

I'm getting in on this late, and can't quite figure out what you were up to in doing this, but I can give you some advice on phase.

Phase is such an overlooked item in mixing. Lots of things to be done with it.

For example, when cutting large vocal groups or live strings, I used to use a mic technique called...what else...MS micing (middle-side). The way this works is to place a cardioid mic in the center of the ensemble facing them. Along with that, and directly below or above that, place a 'figure 8' patterned mic facing left to right. Record the group.

When mixing, place the cardioid signal pnned center. Mult the figure 8 to two channels and pan them hard left and right, and invert one of them. Bring up one of the hard panned faders to a suitable level, then bring up the other hard panned track till they cancel (they truely will). Then slowly bring up the center track until......You'll know when!!!!

I've used this M.O. in rooms as small as 40 X 40 and the result sounds like it was cut in a HUGE cathedral.

The reason is, the cardioid mic panned center is the main source of the choir or what ever, and the two figure 8 signals phase cancel everything but the non-linear room reflections.

Another use for phase cancelation is if you have a vocalist that hates headphones, place two small speakers on the blind side of the vocal mic and feed a mono music track to them, flipping the phase at one of the speaker inputs. Before cutting the vocal, monitor the vocal mic, play the music track, and have someone move the mic slowly from left to right 'til you hit the 'sweet spot' where the music track cancels. Then it doesn't matter how loud the vocalist wants to hear the music track while singing, the music won't wind up on the vocal track.

Bunch of live tricks as well.
 
120nwb said:
Hey Bull!

The reason is, the cardioid mic panned center is the main source of the choir or what ever, and the two figure 8 signals phase cancel everything but the non-linear room reflections.
Whoa, that's just plain wrong. Please don't explain how something works if you really don't understand how it works.
 
120nwb said:
Bring up one of the hard panned faders to a suitable level, then bring up the other hard panned track till they cancel (they truely will). Then slowly bring up the center track until..
I do it quite opposite of that. I bring my center up first, to a level I want, then move the 2 hard panned fig 8 tracks as a stereo pair, together, to adjust the amount of stereo spread I want.
 
Bulls Hit said:
Hey thanks. Is that your work? Nice link, very easy to understand

Yep, I wrote that but obviously the idea of doing M/S this way wasn't my idea. It was a compliation from sources that I linked and some experimentation. Folks have done this with an analog console for years.

Did it work for you?
 
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