N
nerzhul
New member
Hello, I'm looking to pickup some equipment to record an orchestral pedal harp. I did a search on past topics discussing harps and the last one I found was from last September. Based off the info in those posts I'm planning on the following:
2 Behringer ECM8000 mics
M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard
Currently have:
M-Audio Audio Buddy 2 channel mic pre-amp.
The other mic recommendation was the Marshal 603s. Can anyone tell me the difference between the 603s and the ECM8000? Since the 603s is at least twice as much I'm having a hard time justifying the cost if it isn't significantly better.
The plan is to go with an X/Y configuration. Along the lines of setting the X/Y up, is there an attachment/adapter I can buy that will let me setup 2 mics on 1 stand, or do I need to buy another stand? (I'm pretty new to the recording scene).
Last, I'm wondering if there's an alternative sound card I should be considering. The 2496 seems like a solid card at $149. The main thing I'm looking for is a good clean sound. And since the only thing I'm recording is a single harp, I don't need any of the extra inputs.
If anyone has any other tips, please chime in.
Thanks.
Here are the posts I used as reference:
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=62338&highlight=harp
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=41088&highlight=harp
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=90035&highlight=harp
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Harvey Gerst
Recording solo harp is a bitch - your signal chain has to be very clean - and very quiet. I've used the Shure SM-81's before and those worked very well. When I do it again, I'll probably try the Marshall MXL-603S's (from about a 4' to 6' distance), or the Behringer ECM8000's (in pretty close). Some points to consider:
The pedals can be noisey, so getting the mics about 6 feet in the air or more can definitely help. Put the harpist on a 4' x 4' square of plywood to direct some of the sound up in the air. Try both X/Y, ORTF, NOS, and even wide A-B spacings to see which works best in your room.
Also, try putting the harpist in the long corner of the room to cut down some of the other room nodes, and then adjust the mic distance, to balance out the one major node you've created (by putting it in the corner).
What didn't work well was the Neumann TLM-103, an AKG 414BULS, an AKG C3000, EV CS-15, and just about every other mic in my damn locker. The woman brought 3 different concert size harps and a medium Celtic harp to the studio.
It took a whole day just to decide on the mics and the placement. Good luck; jazz harp will probably be a little easier, but not much.
---------------------------------
2nd post:
If it's a full size, grand concert harp, it's gonna be a bitch to record. You need some distance to avoid all the creaking and clicking noises those pedals make.
I tried every mic I owned and most of them sucked for harp. The harpist brought three concert harps too, so it wan't a problem with this particular harp.
Here's what I found:
Putting her and her harp in the corner of the room helped with the room resonance problems.
Putting the harp on a large piece of plywood helped direct some of the highs up towards the mics.
None of my LD condensers or ribbon mics really sounded good. And most of the small condenser mics had way too much noise.
I finally settled on a pair of Shure SM-81s, positioned about 6 feet back from the harp, about 7 feet in the air, and arranged in an X/Y configuration.
Now all of this is before MXL, Oktava, and SP mics were on the market, so those may just work fine.
But when you finally find the right spot, oh God, what a glorious sound.
I hope some of this helps. She's gonna come back soon, and I'm dying to try all these new mics on her harps.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Monroe
Actually, I have quite a bit of experience with mic'ing harp, but most of it Celtic lap harp, a bit of a different animal. Of course, you can't put it on Harvey's piece of plywood, and you don't have to deal with the pedals. Close micing a concert harp will not work unless the piece doesn't involve using the pedals (some pieces don't) Finding out what the harp is like, and what the music is like in advance will cut your sound check time a hell of a lot. A little WD40 on the metal pedal linkages (not the wood) of the harp will go a long way toward quieting down the pedals. Actually, new style uses liquid graphite. Ask the harpist if there is any lubricating they can do to quiet the pedals, and explain the problem. They'll probably be willing to help. Of course you won't be putting any nassssty stuff on their pricey harp, because they will blow a gasket. Find out if the material that's being played makes extensive use of pedals, or whether it just has sharping levers.
Lap (folk) harp is easier, as it has no pedals, and can be treated a lot like a classical guitar, if it is nylon strung (most are). A few are bronze strung, and will be more reverberent, like a steel string guitar as opposed to a classic. I've had my best luck with a pair of Oktava MC012's X-Y in front and about at the top of the harp, backed off about 3 feet pointed down at the center of the soundboard. Not the *whole* soundboard, but the mid point between the highest and lowest note in the song being played. A third darker mic (Oktava MK319 in my case) is placed over the right shoulder (assuming rt. handed harpist) to pick up the deeper bass tones. See the hole in the back of the thing? That's the sound hole, like if a guitar had its sound hole cut in the back!
Remember that a folk player is called a harper and a classical player is called a harpist, like the difference between violin and fiddle. I'm sure your client will appreciate it if you ask questions up front that show you are considering the unique properties of this instrument. So the questions are: nylon or metal strung? Do you have pedals and will you use them? When you get them in the studio, check the highest and lowest note that will be used. For concert harp, boost highs by placing it on a hard surface, for folk harp, boost lows by using an LD condenser on the back of the body. Hope this helps.- Richie
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Prism
I recorded a friend playing a Celtic harp during Christmas 2000... I am not happy with the sound, and I believe that it is because the room had too much carpeting and other absorptive objects. It had no "life," if you take my meaning...it was very dull. I tend to think that some good small diaphragm condenser mics (Marshall 603s?) in a stereo pattern would work well in a good sized room with little or no carpeting, no bookcases and such, but with some diffusers or some sort of paneling on the walls or around the performer so you don't get a lot of reflection.
Isaiah
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Freeform
I was in a classical trio session last week. The harp was recorded with two small diaphragm condensers (like km-84s) in an XY pattern. The peak of the triangle in the XY was pointed towards the harpist, right next to the end of the harp on her right side. It sounded amazing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Behringer ECM8000 mics
M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard
Currently have:
M-Audio Audio Buddy 2 channel mic pre-amp.
The other mic recommendation was the Marshal 603s. Can anyone tell me the difference between the 603s and the ECM8000? Since the 603s is at least twice as much I'm having a hard time justifying the cost if it isn't significantly better.
The plan is to go with an X/Y configuration. Along the lines of setting the X/Y up, is there an attachment/adapter I can buy that will let me setup 2 mics on 1 stand, or do I need to buy another stand? (I'm pretty new to the recording scene).
Last, I'm wondering if there's an alternative sound card I should be considering. The 2496 seems like a solid card at $149. The main thing I'm looking for is a good clean sound. And since the only thing I'm recording is a single harp, I don't need any of the extra inputs.
If anyone has any other tips, please chime in.
Thanks.
Here are the posts I used as reference:
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=62338&highlight=harp
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=41088&highlight=harp
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=90035&highlight=harp
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harvey Gerst
Recording solo harp is a bitch - your signal chain has to be very clean - and very quiet. I've used the Shure SM-81's before and those worked very well. When I do it again, I'll probably try the Marshall MXL-603S's (from about a 4' to 6' distance), or the Behringer ECM8000's (in pretty close). Some points to consider:
The pedals can be noisey, so getting the mics about 6 feet in the air or more can definitely help. Put the harpist on a 4' x 4' square of plywood to direct some of the sound up in the air. Try both X/Y, ORTF, NOS, and even wide A-B spacings to see which works best in your room.
Also, try putting the harpist in the long corner of the room to cut down some of the other room nodes, and then adjust the mic distance, to balance out the one major node you've created (by putting it in the corner).
What didn't work well was the Neumann TLM-103, an AKG 414BULS, an AKG C3000, EV CS-15, and just about every other mic in my damn locker. The woman brought 3 different concert size harps and a medium Celtic harp to the studio.
It took a whole day just to decide on the mics and the placement. Good luck; jazz harp will probably be a little easier, but not much.
---------------------------------
2nd post:
If it's a full size, grand concert harp, it's gonna be a bitch to record. You need some distance to avoid all the creaking and clicking noises those pedals make.
I tried every mic I owned and most of them sucked for harp. The harpist brought three concert harps too, so it wan't a problem with this particular harp.
Here's what I found:
Putting her and her harp in the corner of the room helped with the room resonance problems.
Putting the harp on a large piece of plywood helped direct some of the highs up towards the mics.
None of my LD condensers or ribbon mics really sounded good. And most of the small condenser mics had way too much noise.
I finally settled on a pair of Shure SM-81s, positioned about 6 feet back from the harp, about 7 feet in the air, and arranged in an X/Y configuration.
Now all of this is before MXL, Oktava, and SP mics were on the market, so those may just work fine.
But when you finally find the right spot, oh God, what a glorious sound.
I hope some of this helps. She's gonna come back soon, and I'm dying to try all these new mics on her harps.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Monroe
Actually, I have quite a bit of experience with mic'ing harp, but most of it Celtic lap harp, a bit of a different animal. Of course, you can't put it on Harvey's piece of plywood, and you don't have to deal with the pedals. Close micing a concert harp will not work unless the piece doesn't involve using the pedals (some pieces don't) Finding out what the harp is like, and what the music is like in advance will cut your sound check time a hell of a lot. A little WD40 on the metal pedal linkages (not the wood) of the harp will go a long way toward quieting down the pedals. Actually, new style uses liquid graphite. Ask the harpist if there is any lubricating they can do to quiet the pedals, and explain the problem. They'll probably be willing to help. Of course you won't be putting any nassssty stuff on their pricey harp, because they will blow a gasket. Find out if the material that's being played makes extensive use of pedals, or whether it just has sharping levers.
Lap (folk) harp is easier, as it has no pedals, and can be treated a lot like a classical guitar, if it is nylon strung (most are). A few are bronze strung, and will be more reverberent, like a steel string guitar as opposed to a classic. I've had my best luck with a pair of Oktava MC012's X-Y in front and about at the top of the harp, backed off about 3 feet pointed down at the center of the soundboard. Not the *whole* soundboard, but the mid point between the highest and lowest note in the song being played. A third darker mic (Oktava MK319 in my case) is placed over the right shoulder (assuming rt. handed harpist) to pick up the deeper bass tones. See the hole in the back of the thing? That's the sound hole, like if a guitar had its sound hole cut in the back!
Remember that a folk player is called a harper and a classical player is called a harpist, like the difference between violin and fiddle. I'm sure your client will appreciate it if you ask questions up front that show you are considering the unique properties of this instrument. So the questions are: nylon or metal strung? Do you have pedals and will you use them? When you get them in the studio, check the highest and lowest note that will be used. For concert harp, boost highs by placing it on a hard surface, for folk harp, boost lows by using an LD condenser on the back of the body. Hope this helps.- Richie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prism
I recorded a friend playing a Celtic harp during Christmas 2000... I am not happy with the sound, and I believe that it is because the room had too much carpeting and other absorptive objects. It had no "life," if you take my meaning...it was very dull. I tend to think that some good small diaphragm condenser mics (Marshall 603s?) in a stereo pattern would work well in a good sized room with little or no carpeting, no bookcases and such, but with some diffusers or some sort of paneling on the walls or around the performer so you don't get a lot of reflection.
Isaiah
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Freeform
I was in a classical trio session last week. The harp was recorded with two small diaphragm condensers (like km-84s) in an XY pattern. The peak of the triangle in the XY was pointed towards the harpist, right next to the end of the harp on her right side. It sounded amazing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------