Microphone vacuum experiment question

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I'm thinking of putting a microphone in one of those space saver plastic bags which you can attach a vacuum cleaner hose and vacuum out the air. It's for an experiment to hear what a condenser and dynamic microphone will sound like in complete silence with very little air molecules moving the diaphragm. I've taken into consideration other electrical noise from preamps and recording devices, so let's not talk about those.

Question is, is it safe to put a microphone in such a low pressure environment?
Another question, does the vacuum sealed bag also serve as a dry cabinet? Maybe I can store my cameras in here instead of investing in an expensive dry cabinet!
 
sounds like a terrible idea, amigo.
are you using wireless mics? how are you going to deal with the cable that needs to come through the bag?
as far as i know, air is required to move the diaphragm of a mic.
putting it in a vacuum will likely damage the diaphragm.
 
The idea of the experiment is to NOT have air moving the diaphragm, hence the vacuum. What you then hear from the microphone is purely its electrical noise, which is what I am after.

Considering that all sorts of satellites in space function without being in a pressurized chamber, the only threat to the microphone would be the lack of air to disperse the heat generated by the microphone, causing it to melt if left on for too long. If the microphone has fluid or gaseous components then yes the pressure difference will cause them to expand and explode. My microphones have no fluid components and I can always not leave them on for too long to prevent overheating. So with that aside, I don't see how else the vacuum chamber can destroy the diaphragm.
 
Not knowing the strength of the vacuum - you may dislodge the diaphragm or suck it from it's seated position piece by piece.
 
Go for it. Let us know if your mics still work when you're done.
 
Yeah. :laughings: findings on such experiments need to be documented.
 
Not knowing the strength of the vacuum - you may dislodge the diaphragm or suck it from it's seated position piece by piece.
no ..... you'd have to have a pressure differential to do that. As long as there are no sealed parts of that mic I don't think a vacuum is gonna dislodge anything.
 
Well, it seems like you've got it figured out then, homie. Go for it. One thing to consider is that satellites were designed with the purpose of operating in a vacuum and your mics were not.
You might look into how mic manufacturers test the self noise of their products and that might give you some ideas for setup and procedures.
 
You'd only be getting a portion of the air out, the bag would still pass noise through it's thin walls.
Use something solid wall like a vacuum bell, and look up 'high vacuum pump'.
 
..Another question, does the vacuum sealed bag also serve as a dry cabinet? Maybe I can store my cameras in here instead of investing in an expensive dry cabinet!

Hey, missed this. Mostly all you need is a fairly stable temp and humidity and to keep dust out. A loose fitting plastic bag is a recommended way to go!
Generally moisture is only a problem with rapid temp changes.
 
no ..... you'd have to have a pressure differential to do that. As long as there are no sealed parts of that mic I don't think a vacuum is gonna dislodge anything.

Guess I'll leave that idea to the sci-fi writers then Steve. :)
 
Go for it. One thing to consider is that satellites were designed with the purpose of operating in a vacuum and your mics were not.
Yeah my primary concern lies over the uncertainty of using things outside of its intended use. Since it looks like nobody has attempted this before, then there's only 1 way to find out!

Brb, I gotta get myself one of those 'Space bags' :facepalm:
In the mean time, here's an overview of the experiment:

Rationale:
Somebody asked me how to differentiate between the self noise of the microphone's build from the noise caused by the random movement of air molecules surrounding the diaphragm. He wanted to be able to HEAR the microphone's "true" self noise. This is useful information for recordists who are operating very close to the noise floor trying to record quiet distant sounds/signals - whether the poor signal to noise ratio is attributed to the limitations of their microphone (time to upgrade) or to the limitations of the environment (no need to upgrade).

Yes, the noise floor is made up of multiple noise sources throughout the signal flow: preamp noise + electrical noise from power sources + electromagnetically induced noise (radio waves) in wires and antennas + microphone self noise + ambient noise. There are several ways to uniquely identify these variables so that you could eliminate them from the equation to eventually isolate the microphone's self noise, but there's the dead end. I haven't come across any method that tries to differentiate the electrical self noise caused by the build of the microphone from ambient noise caused by the atmosphere.

I cannot compare 2 different mics vs a constant atmosphere, because we need measure the atmosphere by how it sounds like, which has no absolute value and is not recorded as a constant variable because each microphone hears it differently due to their unique sensitivity, frequency response, and polar patterns - unnecessary variables to deal with.

It makes more sense to keep the microphone constant and vary the atmospheres. Better still, ELIMINATE the atmosphere.

Manufacturers use anechoic chambers to test and calibrate microphones, but it's not enough for this experiment because a microphone in these chambers can probably still hear an ambient noise caused by random motion of air molecules. People who sit in an anechoic chamber will start to hear their own blood flow and heartbeat as well as a kind of white noise-like hiss that rings in the ears and gets louder until it's deafening. Some claim that this hiss is completely neurological, others claim that it is the air bouncing off the eardrums. For the sake of this experiment I'll assume the latter is true.

With the vacuum bag setup, indeed there will still be some air remaining and we can never achieve total vacuum. But if the reduction of air is enough to cause a significant difference in what the microphone hears vs. in normal atmospheric conditions, then we're still on to something


The walls of the bag will come into contact with the microphone casing (The mesh that encapsulates the diaphragm) but not with the diaphragm itself. The space between the casing and the diaphragm serves as the "vacuum".

Hey, missed this. Mostly all you need is a fairly stable temp and humidity and to keep dust out. A loose fitting plastic bag is a recommended way to go!
Generally moisture is only a problem with rapid temp changes.
Interesting, never thought of it that way. Thanks!
 
Rationale:
Somebody asked me how to differentiate between the self noise of the microphone's build from the noise caused by the random movement of air molecules surrounding the diaphragm. He wanted to be able to HEAR the microphone's "true" self noise. This is useful information for recordists who are operating very close to the noise floor trying to record quiet distant sounds/signals - whether the [poor] signal to noise ratio is attributed to the limitations of their microphone (time to upgrade) or to the limitations of the environment (no need to upgrade).
Hmm. Of interest, but unless pulling the air out of recording room as was one of the options.. :D why helpful? :)
 
An interesting project! Would love to know how this one comes out.

If you have a vacuum (pressure) gauge you can measure at several pressures below ambient and then extrapolate to zero.

You don't mention what microphone(s) you are testing. If it is a condenser capsule then it will need to be be of a vented construction, and go slowly to give everything time to equilibrate.

Start with something cheap and disposable.

I suspect that you will really need a proper pump and vacuum chamber with fixed walls rather than a bag to achieve a decent, repeatable vacuum. Household vacuums suck, but not much. Find a friend who works in a university science lab!
 
Somebody asked me how to differentiate between the self noise of the microphone's build from the noise caused by the random movement of air molecules surrounding the diaphragm. He wanted to be able to HEAR the microphone's "true" self noise. This is useful information for recordists who are operating very close to the noise floor trying to record quiet distant sounds/signals - whether the poor signal to noise ratio is attributed to the limitations of their microphone (time to upgrade) or to the limitations of the environment (no need to upgrade).

Possibly fun to play with but I'm sceptical that the results (if, indeed, there are any) will be useful since in real use the microphones will always be in the atmosphere.

As I understand it, self noise measurements would normally be done in an anechoic chamber which allows you to hear the microphone in a normal environment but without any extraneous sounds. If you're concerned about RF interference, I guess you could build a Faraday cage around the anechoic chamber.

(As an aside, being in an anechoic chamber is a strange, somewhat disorienting experience. As humans, we're so used to having a room atmosphere that having a totally sound proof room with no reflections seems very strange. You quickly start to hear a hiss in your ears and start to perceive things like your pulse.)

Anyway, the self noise of a mic in a vacuum (assuming you can create one) is unlikely to tell you much about the sound of a mic in a normal environment.
 
I just saw this old thread. As a microphone designer I thought i'd better respond.

The inside of the vacuum bag will virtually be at atmospheric pressure. Vacuum cleaners are only capable of very slight pressure reduction.

If you do operate condenser mics at reduced pressure (say from an industrial vacuum pump) you will first see increasing peaks in the response because air is the primary damping mechanism.

If you want to measure the noise of the electronics only simply unhook the capsule and substitute an equal value fixed capacitor.

In many condenser mics the capsule (pressure noise across its acoustic resistance) is the primary noise source.

Les Watts
L M Watts Technology
 
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