Mic'ing the nylon string guitar

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lotuscent

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Hey all - I have been trying to get a decent sound recording of my nylon string guitar and still no luck. I have tried a U87, an Alesis Am51 and a Shure sm81 in various combinations and placements with Mackie VLZ and Art Mp pre's.
The problem is the combination of darkness of tone and proxmity... it always seems to boomy and/or unbalanced close, too distant and small (though better balanced) and undetailed at a distance. In a mix, it has no presence and tring to fix that with EQ sounds like dry crackers.

I am a very well trained player with a good instrument.

Any experience anyone can share?

peace.
 
To me, a good classical guitar needs a good room to work with. Natural reverb and all that.

I'd try a floor mic about 6' away and the rest as Zeke said. In critical listening you should be hearing some of your breathing.
 
Thanks for the input. I have tried such configurations as both of you describe. The close mic'ing (below soundhole, 12 fret) just gets too much proximity - not a problem on my steel string. even with the low cuts engaged on the U87 and the SM81.

I am beginning to think that distant mic'ing is the way to go, but I need pre's with more gain. The low signals I have been getting sound awful when trimmed up inside my Mac.

Any more thoughts out there?
 
I suggest a small diaphragm omni (or 2 ) near where the fretboard joins the body and/or below the sound hole. A true omni exhibits no proximity effect. If you have a really good sounding room, a pair of SD omnis in AB configuration about 6 feet away can be magic.

Scott
 
Actually, I'm a little surprised you can't get a good sound with the mics you mentioned. I've even used a Behringer pre on acoustic guitar with good results.

A DMP3 mic pre and a couple of small condensers is definitely a good way to go. Like DigitMus said, an omni close micing the bout can bring a lot of bass and presence without the boominess. Combine this with another SD (cardioid or omni) somewhere on the neck, and you should be able to get good tone. If that doesn't work you have a room problem or a guitar that doesn't record well. Have you tried other guitars to see if you have the same problem?
 
You say it won't mix well. What context is the guitar used? With a full band/ dense mix or more of a solo/ few instruments? In a denser mix I've had good luck with a single KM-184 close to the face of the guitar behind the bridge pointed at the lower bout. It mixes with a band nicely.
 
Classic guitar can be a bitch. I've had my best luck with a coincedent pair of matched small diaphragm condensers, backed off, as you say. As you and others have pointed out, this requires a pretty good room, and a preamp with a lot of clean gain. I've had my best results using a pair of Studio Projects C-4's into an Avalon AD2022, backed off 3-4 feet, X-Y. You have some truly excellent mics. What are you using for preamps? In my opinion, the close mic'ing techniques listed by several people work much better with steel string guitars than nylon. If I owned the pair, I'd try a near coincedent pair of C414's backed off, but too bad, I only own one, and I have found I need the whole stereo picture. I have had no luck whatsoever close mic'ing classical or Celtic lap harp, which also has nylon strings. Good luck-Richie
 
When it comes to nylon string guitars I've found that small diaphragm condensers are usually my best friends... the two I've had sucess with recently are the Josephson "C-42" and the T.H.E. "KP-6M"... but as mentioned in a previous post, the room will indeed play a major role in this process.

Best of luck with it.
 
pickups?

I wouldn't ask if you weren't frustrated with the mikes, but . . .
are blended pickups that include the little condenser on the
stem (rare earth, I think) out of the question? Why can't they work?
 
Start looking around

Try and find and old bi-directional ribbon mic. Placed about 2 feet from the guitar. One node aimed at the guitar the other picks up the room. Very natural sounding as it picks up both the room and the guitar equally.
 
Re: Start looking around

sloop said:
Try and find and old bi-directional ribbon mic. Placed about 2 feet from the guitar. One node aimed at the guitar the other picks up the room. Very natural sounding as it picks up both the room and the guitar equally.
Click to expand...
Make sure it's an old ribbon mic, because a new ribbon mic will make classical guitar sound like a cornet. An old ribbon mic is an absolute necessity for this technique. :rolleyes:
 
Some of you are mentioning the room... That is for sure a factor when distant mic'ing... admittedly my room is not great, kind of canned sounding, so I use material covered baffles and reflective metal music stands even to try and doctor it up.

To those of you who mentioned pre's and mic choice, my Art and stock Mackie pro's don't seem to have the gain for distant mic'ing... can you comment on this? any suggestions?

I confess, I don't think I have tries the SM 81 close up in omni (never occurred to me, funny).

The context for mixing is usually in small jazz type combo with vocals. Think Brazilian - ish - bass and percussion. Plenty of room for the guitar. My guitar is a spruce/rosewood David Perry - it is guite a bit brighter and louder than my Cedar yamaha... between the two, i think it is the better choice.

Thanks to everyone so far on this thread. I feel certain that this can be solved without resorting to new equipment.

peace.
 
I prefer SDC's mic's for this type of recording.... I have a feeling your problem is more with the instrument, room and mic placement than it is with the mic.

If you want a tight focused sound, close mic the guitar and if you want a lose distance type sound, place the mic farther away. If your guitar sound or room sound sucks.... so will the recording.

More bass near the sound hole....... more treble off the neck and by the bridge. Also, try miking over the shoulder, and the room and etc.
 
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What could you be thinking? Ypu've got a Neumann U87 and you're running it through an ART pre and a Mackie board??!? Geez, buy a real preamp!-Richie
 
Re: Re: Start looking around

LOL, Guess I asked for that one. OK, how about any bi-directional ribbon mic. It really does sound nice. Of course you can't have a noisy room
Everyone always seems to jump to small condensers, at least with the posts. I am just tossing in an option I have found that works. By the way, the mic I used is a Shure 300 Bi-directional, gradient ribbon.





cominginsecond said:
Make sure it's an old ribbon mic, because a new ribbon mic will make classical guitar sound like a cornet. An old ribbon mic is an absolute necessity for this technique. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
Yeah... I figured I needed better pre's pretty soon. everybody keeps recommending the mic placement, especially SD's up close. believe me, I have tried everything I can think of with the mic's available to me. Seems some of you may not have read that part of it.

Yeah, an Art and Mackie's for sure could be improved... I think that may be the crux of the biscuit...

limited funds have forced me to push tweaking with what I have to the limit, and short of moving to a different room, I may have pushed the limit.

Anyway, to all those who put in their two cents, many thanks.
peace
 
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