Mic pre companies not adjusting prices?

[jeff0633]

Hi folks. seeing an ad a little while ago got me to thinking. FMR audio has the rNP, Maudio the Tampa, and other companies have similar stuff, but then I see an Ad for a single channel Avalon M5 for 1200 dollars. Can they seriously say that their single channel mic pre is 900 dollars better than a mic pre from an RNP? Somehow I find that hard to accept. One of the pres in the RNP is around $230 dollars. Is the Avalon M5 really 900 dollars BETTER? Can Avalon really come forward with this suggestion? When will the big-time expensive pres start coming down in price. It seems some of them are living in the past, before the huge glut of home studios and didgital audio, when hardly no one had a bedroom studio. These changes have spawned an entire new "audio arms race" where products are getting better and better. the RNP is a classic example of this. This is a very high quality unit for 230 bucks per channel. I don't believe for a second that the Avalon M5 is 900 dollars better per channel. Do you? Are companies like Avalon living in the era when there were very few bedroom studios or what? Won't there be more and more companies releasing great products like the RNP, the Brick, the Tampa and all that? Won't companies like Avalon be forced to face the fact that mic pres by other companies are Coming closer and closer to the quality that they have, and are doing it for far cheaper than they are? I realize that the Avalon is a better pre than the RNP, but 900 DOLLARS BETTER? I would love to hear some other thoughts on this. Will RNP quality for 500 bucks be something we can look forward to from other companies?

Thanks

Jeff

 

[MadAudio]

How can that Rolls Royce cost more than my Honda? It's outrageous!

 

[chessrock]

Some of it is, in fact, a quality thing. Some of it is also an image thing.

If you're a comrecial facility, and can boast the fact that you "have several Avalons" in your gear list, then you might be able to attract more clientelle, or better clientelle. Or perhaps a particular type of clientelle (the kind that like Avalons). Reason being that a lot of potential customers don't know a lot of the technical details about this stuff like some of us do. The thought of working at a facility that stocks Avalons might be appealing to some, as it can give the impression of a higher-end facility.

This goes for a lot of things in life: if a particular name brand can help you get more business, to the point where it's a financially-justifyable investment, then by all means. Absolutely, it's worth the extra money - perhaps more, under that scenario.

If Avalon ever seriously wants to target the budget project studio, then I'm sure they'll either adjust accordingly, or perhaps market sort of a spinoff brand ... maybe even come up with a budget lineup. But this kinda' stuff can be risky, obviously, as it can threaten to cheapen the brand name in some people's eyes -- people might start associating them with consumer gear, which might not be their aim.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Kinda of along the lines of what Chess was saying (although his post wasn't there when I started mine - I got called to the phone before I could hit SEND!).......

It will help you understand it if you think of it as a form of self-licencing for the pro audio community... pro studios/engineers will pay for/buy the top-end gear - rookies/amateurs/novices/wannabes can't or won't....

So no - don't expect the high-end gear manufacturers to bring their prices down... their target market is far different than M-Audio's...

And FMR Audio is kind of the odd-man-out of the high-end bunch... they could easily charge signifincantly more for their product because of its calibre, but so far have chosen not to.

 

[boingoman]

It will help you understand it if you think of it as a form of self-licencing for the pro audio community... pro studios/engineers will pay for/buy the top-end gear - rookies/amateurs/novices/wannabes can't or won't....

Interesting concept. It plays out in the live world as well. If someone has a 24 box V-dosc setup and a Midas Heritage, they either a) have the experience and legitimate business to have it or b) have lots of cash and no brains. It becomes obvious really quick which is the case.

No to mention something that hasn't been said yet. The hardware/labor cost alone for some top-end pres is more than the price of a lot of budget gear.

Many high-end pres can have several hundred dollars of op-amps, servos, tube circuit parts, and transformers alone. And require a significant amount of hand-assembly.

That's before precision pots and other high-quality parts, and rugged housings.

There is a reason a Focusrite Red has a 5/16" aluminum face, beyond price.

 

[SonicAlbert]

The thing to remember is that the RNP and the Brick are exceptions to the rule, not the rule. And there are some that feel the RNP is "good for the money", in other words, a great value but still not up to boutique level quality, which is generally found at around $1,000 per channel.

Also, don't forget that Groove Tubes makes a super expensive single channel Preamp, the ViPRE. The BRICK is their budget offering.

I'm not sure I agree with the statement that gear is getting better and better. A few manufacturers have found ways to bring some greater quality into lower priced gear than existed before. So perhaps you could say that there are certain limited offerings at low prices that are better than what was available before. But in general you still have to pay for quality, same as always.

 

[Wide Awake]

"If P.T. Barnum were alive today he would be in the audio business"

 

[scrubs]

Can they seriously say that their [Avalon M5] single channel mic pre is 900 dollars better than a mic pre from an RNP? Somehow I find that hard to accept. One of the pres in the RNP is around $230 dollars. Is the Avalon M5 really 900 dollars BETTER? Can Avalon really come forward with this suggestion?

They don't have to say it. Their reputation and sales numbers say it for them. As long as people are willing to pay it (and clients demand it), they will sell it at that price. As to whether something "sounds" $900 better, that remains a purely subjective decision. Some people refuse to put a price on sound quality. Their (Avalon's) margins are obviously sufficient to maintain a profitable position in the market. If there was something obviously better than the Avalon (for "x" application) for less money, they might have to reconsider their practices. Otherwise, there is no need.

MadAudio's car comparison is very apropos. Is a Bentley/Rolls/etc. more luxurious than a Honda? Definitely. Do they drive better? Probably, depending on your definition of "better." Are they more reliable? Not a chance. Are they safer? Not usually. Do they get better gas mileage? Hardly. So, the question is, which attributes are more important to the consumer?

The point is, there is gear at varying price points because there are users with different price/performance needs and expectations. Some people may be perfectly satisfied with their Behringer mixer pres. Others demand more performance and are willing to pay the difference.

I don't know what I was trying to say, but I'm done now.

 

[xstatic]

Keep in mind that alot of people on this board especially really give a lot of hype to RNC, RNP, the Brick, the Safesound, the Wharfedales etc... Most of those people have never used anything better and for them it is a huge improvement over what they have used prior to that. Thats why those pieces represent such a great "value". However, noone that I know is in a hurry to sell of their La2a's to replace them with RNC's. Not only that, but the same gear that gets raves on here is not nearly as accepted in other circles. That does not mean anything bad about that gear though. I am sure we all get the best stuff that we can, but within our means. My means and expectations are different than someone else's. A few hundred bucks for an RNP might be a great value for a lot of people. For me it would be a waste of money given the tools I already have.

I certainly agree though that the gap between the quality of the newer cheaper stuff and the tried and true high end items has narrowed. That does not mean that Emperical labs has to change the price of distressors. The RNC has not affected their sales one bit. And yes, to me my distressor is worth 10 times the price of an RNC. The wharfedales may sound good, but does that mean that my Dynaudio's are not worth it? Hell no. Every day I enjoy my Dynaudio's and given what I know now I would pay even more for them if I needed to.

In summary, there is a lot of wonderful gear now on the market that is pretty affordable. However, it still isn't even in the ballpark of the great classics that still cost so much. You might not hear $900 of difference between the RNP and the Avalon. That means that you either don't like the Avalon sound, haven't gotten to the point in your recordings where it really would make a difference, or are nowhere near affording it. That may sound harsh, but it is reality. Not only that, it's not even a bad thing. Thats the wonderful thing about what we do. There is always more to learn and room for improvement. If there wasn't it wouldn't be any fun anymore.

 

[jeff0633]

thanks to all. There are some smart folks on this group.

You guys know your stuff. Thanks for the great, informative answers. What I gathered is that for me, as a bedroom studio artists, the 900 dollars would not be smart, so it is not worth thate xtra because of the situation I am in, not because it's a hard and fast rule. To high end studio owners, who will use and keep these things for maybe 20 years, and have a big time studio with big-time clients, then of course that channel could be worth the extra 900 dollars. So it's more about me than anything else, and what I expect from my equipment and what I plan to do with it. On a low budget in a bedroom studio, the extra 900 would be overkill, but not to others in different situations.

Thanks guys.

Jeff

 

[chessrock]

Keep in mind that alot of people on this board especially really give a lot of hype to RNC, RNP, the Brick, the Safesound, the Wharfedales etc... Most of those people have never used anything better and for them it is a huge improvement over what they have used prior to that.

I've used stuff that's supposed to be better -- or that is at the very least priced to be better -- and it's not like I'm floored when I use the nicer stuff. Nor am I bumbed out or feel compromised when I have to use "lesser" gear.

You're talking about very small increments and slight shades of differences between the gear that processes, amplifies, or attenuates the audio. Where you really get in to very large and obvious improvements are in accoustic treatments / room upgrades, and upgrades to the source itself -- using better instruments and amps. And, of course, the microphone will play a large role.

I can obsess over that stuff all day, whereas I might give about 5 minutes of thought to where I plug the XLR cables in to, or what gain knobs I'm going to be using on the project. Seriously, you'll probably incur greater benefits worrying about what kind of coffee you have on hand rather than stressing out over whether your mic pres are a high enough caliber.

On that thought, I highly recommend a Mexican blend; preferably organic. Shade-grown is nice. Excellent flavor, body, and smell. And use half&half if it's available. It'll put you in a better mood (you won't be as stressed out over having to use crappy mic pres), and the musicians will be all jacked up on the caffein buzz for several hours.

 

[SonicAlbert]

You guys know your stuff. Thanks for the great, informative answers. What I gathered is that for me, as a bedroom studio artists, the 900 dollars would not be smart, so it is not worth thate xtra because of the situation I am in, not because it's a hard and fast rule. To high end studio owners, who will use and keep these things for maybe 20 years, and have a big time studio with big-time clients, then of course that channel could be worth the extra 900 dollars. So it's more about me than anything else, and what I expect from my equipment and what I plan to do with it. On a low budget in a bedroom studio, the extra 900 would be overkill, but not to others in different situations.

Jeff, you got it exactly right. But I would say that within your plan spend as much as you can reasonably afford for the important gear. Like if something a better is available for a little bit more, then don't hesitate to go up, within reason. It will pay off.

Seriously, you'll probably incur greater benefits worrying about what kind of coffee you have on hand rather than stressing out over whether your mic pres are a high enough caliber.

I don't drink coffee, so I'm going to continue to stress over my compressors and eq's, okay?

Actually, I don't stress over it, I love thinking about how to improve my sound and plan the future of my studio. The only problem is one of money...

 

[boingoman]

I don't drink coffee, so I'm going to continue to stress over my compressors and eq's, okay?

...

Heh, heh. I thought for a second he was talking about weed.

 

[Richard Monroe]

"One of the pres in the RNP is around $230 dollars. Is the Avalon M5 really 900 dollars BETTER?"

Yes.

As pointed out by others, it depends on your application. Is a formula 1 racecar better than a Camaro? Not if you intend to go to the supermarket and buy a loaf of bread. It's expensive, noisy, guzzles gas, requires frequent maintenance from a pit crew, and you get all these tickests just for not having turn signals. From the commuter's point of view, the Camaro might be overkill. He needs a Saturn. If you are going to try to enter a Formula 1 qualifying heat, the Camaro is toast. In professional recording,as in professional racing, 80% of the money is spent on the last 10% of performance. That's the difference between the checkered flag and not even qualifying. I wouldn't trade my Avalon for all the RNP's in the world. And BTW, I think the RNP is a perfectly good preamp.-Richie

 

[junplugged]

and that 10% wouldn't come thru on the rest of the gear we use.

 

[Dot]

Many of these "high end" mic pres aren't as expensive as you might think. Buying single-channel units is by far the most expensive way to do it – because you're paying for the power supply every time. Once you get past the cost of the power supply and start adding on more channels – things start to look a little different. Your example was "RNP is around $230 dollars per channel."

API 512C is around $650 dollars per channel
Millennia HV-3D @ $3500 for 8 channels is around $437 per channel
Sebatron vmp-4000e @ $1600 for 4 channels is $400 per channel
Focusrite ISA428 @ $1600 for 4 channels is $400 per channel

Those price-per-channel costs are less than a lot of mid-level pres and channel strips and offer much better performance. People mention the "$1000 barrier" to get into a high-end pre – but that doesn't have to mean $1000 per channel. It just means getting over that hump of buying the power supply and the frame.

In a lot of cases I think the real waste of money is all these mid-level $500 - $700 pres and channel strips. With perhaps the exception of the Grace 101, none of the mid-level units offers much over the good inexpensive units like the M-Audio DMP3, Rane MS 1b, VTB1... and the mid-level units also can't touch the performance of the higher-end units. So what good are they besides adding a few more neato lights in your studio? And frankly, even with the Grace 101 running around $550 – for another $300 you could get into the 4-channel Sytek MPX-4Aii. So even the 101 doesn't escape the "it's not really worth it when you take a good hard look" test.

Since I've been working with Sound Pure I've talked to so many people who have 3-5 or more of these mid-level units. And they keep buying them looking for this "sound" that eludes them. Seems like $500 is sort of an easier target range for people to shell out for a piece of gear. In quite a few cases I've convinced them to sell off their mid-level pres and channel strips and get into a couple of high-end channels. And in every case they've called back or emailed about how gassed they are at the performance difference.

The RNP for 2 channels at $475 is totally acceptable. The Tampa @ $328 is a great deal. The Brick @ $399 is borderline - and it's still delivering mid-level performance, and will give you that nice "whooly" undefined sound if you use it on a lot of tracks.

The RNP, Tampa and 101 all get away with costing much less because of the wallwart power supply – meaning they didn't have to pay the $20K+ for UL approval for an internal power supply. So it's a way to pass on the savings to the end user with a unit that costs less. Fair enough.

And the one interesting thing the RNP has over most of the other units in its price range is that it truly is a "boutique" mic preamp. And it's the "boutique" companies that are turning out the best stuff. If you're looking for a place to invest your hard-earned cash – look into smaller companies that are making their units by hand. One of the very cool things about the internet and pro audio is that it's allowed a lot of small companies to flourish. There's lots of examples of great little companies who never would have had the kind of marketing and advertising budget to even get off the ground who are now well-known because of their name and word about their products getting around on the internet in the various forums. Great River, A Designs, Phoenix Audio, FMR Audio...the list goes on...

If you're a hobbiest and want a couple of channels... running a DMP3 [ $150ish ] through an RNC [ $179ish ] can give great results. Wanna do some vocals and acoustic guitar...the Rane MS 1b [ $150ish ] is outstanding for that. Wanna play with some different colors and versatility... get the VTB1 [ $129ish ]. The Tampa – when you can find it for around $328 – is the only mid-level channel strip I recommend. And the RNP @ $475 and The Brick isn't a total ripoff @ $399. But then there's this loooooong gap... all the way until you hit around $700+ where you can get into the Sebatron vmp1000e. But even at that – why not get the 2-channel Sebatron vmp-2000e for just $300ish more - which is right at about $1000 - and, again, we're at that "magic" number where you start really being able to get into some performance.

If you're a hobbiest and just getting started, don't worry about it. Get one of the inexpensive pres I've recommened here and rock out. They'll do a great job and won't hinder you from making excellent recordings. But if and when you wanna get a little more serious...hang on to your $ – and bypass the mid-level range – and wait until you can crack that $1000 barrier – and from there some serious options open up... A Designs, Hardy, Great River, API...

Once you've got some chops under your belt, there's nothing better than some serious tools. And, yeah, the serious options are worth it.

My 2¢.

 

[mrbowes]

^
reply of the day... maybe week.

 

[amra]

Great replies.
I guess the audio business is like most other businesses or industries. The tools you use is what seperates the men from the boys - the tinkerers from the journeymen. No matter what business you are in, if you are skillfull at and serious about what you do, you will have a significant investment in the tools of your trade, because your skills eventually outpace the tools that you have. If you are not skilled at or serious about what you do, any tools will do, since you are not pushing them hard enough to see their limitations.

Right now, even mid range audio gear exceeds my skill level. But when (if) I reach a point where what I can do, exceeds what my gear can do, I will not hesitate to come out with the checkbook for better gear.
You got to pay to play.

Amra

 

[chessrock]

If you're looking for a place to invest your hard-earned cash – look into smaller companies that are making their units by hand. One of the very cool things about the internet and pro audio is that it's allowed a lot of small companies to flourish.

That's a really good point you make. And it's an interesting trend when you consider just how big the semi-pro audio community is growing ... yet the major players are still relatively small companies (at least compared to the markets they serve).

The RNP, Tampa and 101 all get away with costing much less because of the wallwart power supply – meaning they didn't have to pay the $20K+ for UL approval for an internal power supply. So it's a way to pass on the savings to the end user with a unit that costs less. Fair enough.

Definitely fair enough. The major advantage the Tampa enjoys -- and the Brick, as well, to a large extent -- is actually their "non-boutique" status. Someone like Aspen Pittman has the ability to crank out a pretty high-grade product at a price point that a Mark McQuilken can't touch. And he does this by forging relationships with large manufacturers and moving his product through major retail chains and smaller outfits. Economies of scale are what keeps that level of product within reach of the modest project studio.

If you ever get a chance to crack open a GT Brick ... you see it's pretty nice stuff, there. Solid build. Very large transformers and caps. Quality tubes run at proper voltages. Much better components, I'm assuming, than the run-of-the-mill budget gear. You can tell there's some workmanship going on, there. Yet the price would suggest something much more modest.

The big question mark is ... what market does it really serve? Is it actually priced too low for a professional (or just a big-time gearhead) to take seriously? And is it too simple without enough bells / whistles to satisfy the bedroom studio guy who is easily wowed by all the extra features on something like a Focusrite (for example)?

I personally look at the Brick -- and some of the GT microphones as well -- as setting a new standard. And I look at Pittman as sort of a pioneer in all of this. Kind of taking a boutique level design and build quality and mass-producing it so as to keep the unit price down. It's a great development for the audio community; finally someone who actually has adjusted / adapted their pricing in order to move product, as the original poster has suggested. I hope it continues to work out for them.

 

[xstatic]

Well chessrock, it has become apparent from this thread and many others, that you find no real significance in preamps. Thats OK by me. I agree that having a good source and well treated room are very important, but to me the preamp plays a lot to what i am looking for on a given track. In fact, having all those other ducks in a row makes the preamp just that much more important at the same time So according to you, there is no reason why so many people collect so many different types of preamps? There is a BIG reason. Each different preamp imparts its own character, its own feature set, its own sound and its own vibe to a track. That doesn't mean that you can't get great sounding tracks without incredibly expensive preamps, but it certainly doesn't hurt. I am truly sorry if you can't hear the HUGE differnce between a DMP3 or an RNP and something like a Great River, or a Daking preamp etc.... The differences definately are not as obvious if you just plug in a preamp and listen to a solo'ed track. I remeber being a little dissapointed when I first plugged in my Chandler and compared a single track to the pre's in my console. They were not as different as I had hoped. However, the second I recorded a real track and dropped it in the mix, the difference was obvious and instant. It had a whole differnt feel to it which allowed me to utilize it in completely different ways.

But, i guess if I follow your logic, life will be much more affordable. Why buy a nice mic? It's just a diaphragm that amplifies the sound. Why not buy an old Mackie? The 3k sweep on the Mackie is just a 3k sweep so it must sound just like the 3k sweep on my D&R. Why buy a nice guitar? It's just a bunch of wood with pickups and strings and a couple knobs, the little $100 guitar at the local music store has one that looks just like it, it must sound the same.