Mic in relation to speakers question

[arwenmark]

I am new to all this and setting up a small bedroom with the stuff I have.
I need to do the recording/mixing etc. and the Vocal/acoustic area in the same room.

So far none of the equipment is set up for testing but I am wondering
if having the Mic/vocal area that is in front of my speakers is going to have a feedback problem as opposed to Mic behind main firing of speakers.

Or should it make no difference, the one time we tried the mic it was in front of the speakers and had some feedback problems but not sure if that was why or not.

and if so and you placed your mic/vocal area behind the speakers but still somewhat close to them would it still interfere?

I do plan to put some isolation around the vocal/acoustic area but it won't be complete by any means.

I ask because I notice that on some studio pics on here the mic's seem to be right in front of the desk and speakers in some cases, so I wondered if there was a rule of thumb regarding this.

It is annoying because on my East coast home I have a great sound treated theater that would be wonderful for recording in and a speparate room for control room, as well as some great equipment to listen through. but I am stuck in CA for the present so have to make due.

None of this is ever going to be to sell anything anyway, just personal enjoyment.

 

[mattr]

There are these wonderful things called headphones - I think you might want to try them

 

[gecko zzed]

What mattr is saynig is:

when you record, turn the speakers off and monitor through headphones.

when you playback, turn the mikes off and listen through the speakers.

 

[mattr]

Well, some people purposefully track with open monitors to 'add some vibe' to the recording, but IMO it just sounds like ass (and if you really liked the sound of your control room that much, I can think of far better ways to incorporate it into your mix).

 

[Shadow_7]

Get a headphone preamp. Presonus HP4, lets you mute the monitors on a push of a button. Or switch to mono. No feedback as no resultant sound sources in proximity of the mics. And 4x headphone outs where you might otherwise have monitors. With independent volume knobs. Lots of other options there as well.

With live monitors in the recording chain, you have issues beyond just feedback. Which can be / will be more trouble than it's worth IMO.

 

[mattr]

Just to add... make sure you use closed circumaural cans with good isolation so they don't bleed into the mic. I've also used IEMs in the past when I've been in a bit of a fix, but basically avoid anything that will be audible from the 'outside'.

 

[arwenmark]

Just to add... make sure you use closed circumaural cans with good isolation so they don't bleed into the mic. I've also used IEMs in the past when I've been in a bit of a fix, but basically avoid anything that will be audible from the 'outside'.

I have a couple pairs of AKG K 272HD headphones kicking around, along with a couple Sennheiser HD414's, but those are open

So I can certainly use the AKG's.

 

[arwenmark]

I have another related question, in addition to the recording thing I also want to be able to do live performances in my theater at home. It is acoustically excellant. and has a stage, however performer would be in front of the front speakers for the theater, [it is a 7.2 system, with great speakers] I would probably use the fronts only for performance but wouldn't I have the same feedback issues since the performer and mic would be in front of the speakers? I don't think I want to give all the audience headphones instead, LOL

 

[mixsit]

At that point you would be back to the same rules and variables covering any 'live sound reinforcement situation; room size, room reflections (hard surface, acoustically treated, soft?), mic placement relative to speakers, etc.
Speakers behind the mics as you seem to be saying(?) are more problematic than say the traditional placement where do not 'play into the mic's most sensitive direction. Distance from mic to speaker is the other main factor. For example maybe better to use the rears or side?
Go from there..

 

[Shadow_7]

Normally directional mics and speakers in FRONT of the stage. Your situation sounds a little problematic for live use. Just how big of a home? Acoustically you might only need to mic the vocalist. Just be sure to have a quick way to mute / lower the level on the mic(s). And someone at hand to do the job if you do run into feedback issues. That and only turn the sound system up so loud, and/or mute the stage most speakers when used in that manner. Tons of compromises, but not an ideal situation to start with.

 

[Shadow_7]

You could also try some phase reversal, but that might be a little weird for the performers.

 

[mattr]

Live sound is a different beast.

You can afford to have some amount of bleed from the speakers back into the mic, so long as it isn't enough to cause feedback. Use mics with tight polar patterns and exploit this (and your positioning on stage) to try and reduce the amount the mic picks up from the speakers as much as possible. For example, this might mean using a hypercardioid with good rejection at the sides and positioning yourself towards the back of the stage so the fronts are to the sides of you. Don't even try using the centre speaker!

If I were you, though partly depending on the size of the theatre, I would make use of the flexibility you have with that 7.2 system and would probably be tempted to use only the sides (and possibly the rears, though at lower volumes) and completely forget about the fronts. The combination of the unamplified sound from the stage and the reinforcement from the side speakers should be perfectly adequate for an enjoyable small, acoustic-type gig... please don't come back and say you're hoping to host a death metal gig or something!

But the only way to really find out is to set it up, be careful with your levels and see how things work out.

 

[mixsit]

Live sound is a different beast.

.. The combination of the unamplified sound from the stage and the reinforcement from the side speakers should be perfectly adequate for an enjoyable small, acoustic-type gig... please don't come back and say you're hoping to host a death metal gig or something!

But the only way to really find out is to set it up, be careful with your levels and see how things work out.

Right there, considering how small and lileky fragile hifi' stuff tends to compared to designed for live.

 

[mattr]

Yes, don't forget that live sound isn't the nicely mixed and polished material that you would normally run through your surround system. It often has nasty peaks and wild dynamics that could very easily ruin your equipment. All it takes is for a mic to be dropped on stage, or for a cable to pull out whilst phantom power is on... then popppp ... there goes your tweeters If you do want to use your theatre stuff, I would at least thing about a slipping in a limiter before your amps.

 

[arwenmark]

This is probably an incredibly stupid question but would something like a feedback destroyer somewhere in the signal chain for the "live" performance do anything?
What about using one, in the "studio" as well? Is that something that might be worthwhile?

and no, no heavy metal concerts, LOL perhaps two or three guys doing Irish music

 

[Shadow_7]

Do you need any speakers going that route? Why not just record, no live monitoring / output. Use the speaker system afterwards when you're tossing a few back after a good nights work.

That feedback destroyer is probably just phase reversal. I vaguely remember singing karaoke in a bar with that. Really ODD to perform to. The speakers (reversed from you) cancel out everything that you're doing on your end. Leaving you only the monitors to use for what you're doing right in front of your face. And bar monitors suck. It's such a weird performance environment if it's not something that you're used to.

 

[mattr]

I'm assuming we would be talking a, err, *cough* Behringer ... "feedback destroyer"

Errr, no. Certainly never in a studio. Not worth the space they take up.


Those kind of units are aimed to play into the fears and problems of inexperienced and incompetent live sound operators (can't really call them engineers!) who can't seem to deal with the usual ways of avoiding feedback. They usually work by inserting very narrow notch filters where feedback is detected. Most of them do work to some extent, but nothing beats proper ringing of a room, mic placement, EQ and general technique.

Some of the higher-end loudspeaker management units also have more effective feedback destroyers, but its one of these cases where its a completely different matter when being used effectively as a tool in the hands of people who know what they are doing! In this kind of situation they would only ever be set up as a very very last resort safety net.