Maybe the dumbest question yet???

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thehorseshoe

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Okay. I am a newbie. But I am trying to find a relatively "get by until I understand more about mixing" solution to polishing a mixdown or even individual tracks. I think I have the eq basics down. But what I am trying to figure out is how and what to use to get that very commercial professional sound that you hear in a commercial cd. I know I just asked a question that covers a wide array of solutions, but let's just assume I have my eq perfect, my normalization just right, compression etc. etc. (the basics) What should I do to finalize the whole thing to get that "brilliance" Nothing in depth, but does wavelab offer something that I can use to give it that edge (that I cannot describe) that I am lacking? Thanks again!
 
Dude, if you did everything "right" like you suggest, why does it not compare favorably to commercial recordings?

Yes, this is about as dumb a question as I have seen. No offense to you personally though....you just don't know any better.

Start reading up about mastering. Find some interviews with Bob Ludwig. He will say a lot that many of the CD he mastered didn't need compression and/or eq. He just transferred to already "radio quality" mixes to a computer and created the proper space between the songs, then a high quality copy of the final to send to the duplication plant. That sure doesn't sound like a bunch of "normalizing" and "compressing" and "eqing" to me! Sound like the mixing engineer got it totally right when he mixed it.

I have done a bit of mastering. I tell you, the best mastering I did was with stuff that already sounded really good to begin with. The mixes were loud, balanced tonally, and didn't require me to do much to them at all.

I don't think you are actually getting your mixes right, lest, you would be asking this question.

Go mix! Rumor has it that it takes years of practice and very good ears and gear to make a mix that doesn't need a bunch of help after the fact.

Ed
 
I certainly appreciate the honesty. I wasn't meaning to sound like I have all my ducks in a row, because I do not. One thing I need to play with some more is Q. I have heard people say "narrow" and "wide". I have yet to play with this for any more than about Five Minutes, and maybe my ears just are not good enough to tell a difference (I am using the Cubase version of Q located at the bottom of eq) I do not do a whole lot of compression, but sometimes my steel guitar requires it beacuase it likes to take over the whole song. Normalization I think I have the basics down on it, but I still need a lot of work. Should I maybe look into DSP effects? Maybe another dumb question. I do try to get my levels just right going in and TRY and I do mean TRY to... Thanks again ED. I know there is no one solution sum-it-up to mix and mastering.
 
Ed....you are drawn to these like a magnet....:);)

horseshoe...

to answer your Q question... (in simple terms)

Q is the effective frequency width of the band you are adjusting. A narrow Q value...say 0.2 to 0.4 will adjust a narrow frequency range on each side of your target...

for instance...say you want to add a little air to the mix ...

you might add a few dB's of 16K Hz with a fairly narrow Q value.

If you need a broader range of frequencies use a higher Q value. Think of it as a spike (narrowQ) vs. a hill (broaderQ). Do you want to just accent(detract) a narrow band or add(subtract) to a wider range of frequencies??

Ed is exactly right...

1) Start with good solid hot tracks with little or no EQ
2) Get a good balanced mix

3) all = less tweaking and better sounding end result.

zip >>
 
Thanks Zip. Another thing I thought about was it could be the quality of the mixer I have. At the time I bought it though, it was what I could afford. Don't make me say the "B" word, please...

Thanks again guys. I appreciate your advice!

Shoe
 
Nooooooooo!!! Not the "B" word!! ;):eek:;)

I'm assuming it's one of their lower end mixers...like the $100 one??

If so that's part of the problem. I hear the pres in those are crap. Don't dispair though...you can still use the board BUT you will need a better preamp. Here's some cheap options...

1) Presonus Bluetube - about $160 US. It's a stereo pre. Got one - love it!

2) ART MP - the mono version is about $100 US and they sell a stereo one as well. Ed loves em' :)

Keep in mind...these are good quality LOW end pres. They will get the job done but it really depends on where you want to go with your work. There are many options!! You could replace your "B" board / you could skip the board and go all PC....etc....

Although I risk the wrath of Ed....:lol I've decided to go with the Digi 001 system and my PC because it meets my needs...

zip ducks...:eek:

Many prefer the board / ADAT route...

I guess you have to decide how much cash you are willing to part with and WHAT YOU HAVE NOW...then decide where you want to go with it.

All this just gets you to a good foundation...then as Ed said...you need to learn to mix...

So whattya have now other then the "B" board?? Let us know and there are many here who will help ya.

zip >>
 
Well Zip, thanks again for the advice. IT is not the lowest end model, but the one with 4 mic ins and 6 1/4in ins and 2 stereos. So let us assume the second to lowest end version!
I am glad you asked about what equipment I have because I do love to boast on what GOOD stuff I have. (Now only if I could figure out how to use it!) I am using Cubase 32 R6 with Wavelab 3.1. I use the (B@*$%) mixer and have a Tascam US-428. I am using the RH0DE NT-3 and NT-2 Condenser Mics. I have some great DX plugins and some good VST ones as well like TC Native Reverb and Ren Compressor as well as Free Filter. My computer is a P3 800 with 640 meg of PC133 ram. Two internal hard drives @20 and 40 gig 7200 RPM and a 400 watt power supply. I am using JBL studio monitors with 8 inch driver and a mid-tweeter. Nothing but Monstercable is used in my studio so I think I am on the right track. I am thinking about getting a soundcard that will support 8 inputs as opposed to the 428's 4 (OUCH). I also have the POD and Bass POD along with a Yamaha Keyboard that is okay. I think that about sums it up on the equipment. Any hints and tricks? Thanks again Zip!
 
Sounds like you are 95+% there!! I'm not familiar with the Tascam...is that a DAW??

This is what I would do if I were you...

Either buy a very good soundcard w/ a breakout box....8 in/8 out...Delta / Layla etc...

Or...go my route and buy a Digi 001 / Protools set-up which has the killer 24 bit soundcard + BO box + all the software...

Or...replace the Tascam with an ADAT....

Still a little confused as to why you are not getting a good sound with what you have...

:confused:

What signal level do you track to??

zip >>
 
The Tascam US-428 is a DAW that acts as a 24 bit soundcard via USB hookup. It only has 4 inputs for 1/4, two for xlr and two midi. It really is nice, the latency is unbelievable. It was made primarily for Cubase, but other programs are compatible with it. I might try bypassing the "B" mixer by going directly in to the Tascam, but I still need a good pre like you said. I will look into the two you mentioned. By the way, about ten minutes ago I purchased the JV1010. It will be here Friday, and I am so excited about it, I can hardly wait to hear those 12 string guitars go to work!
My cousin and close friend uses pro tools and swears by it. She is actually the one who really got me hot about recording. You can check their website out- www.nashville-underground.com
They are a compilation of hit songwriters who do their own signing. I really want to become part of that soon, and I am getting ready to send them my finest material. Unfortunately I am not allowed (unwritten rule) to talk to them about recording or music; I could sure learn a lot from them. Thanks for all of your time Zip.
 
Beetleguise...


Beetleguise...


Behringer!!!

There, I've done it and I'm running like hell!:D
 
LOL getuhgrip!! :)

horseshoe...

That's what I thought. You will get improvement with better pres no doubt...with all you have already invested you may want to invest even more for REALLY nice pres...

The question that still comes to mind is...

Other than learning better mixing / mastering techniques will an all digital setup get you to where you want to go? This is a question I can't answer for you. I've heard some really good - damn near exceptional all digital stuff but you can't saturate digital like you can tape. As far as I know most pros still use 2" tape during some part of the process to get that nice warm saturated sound.

You started your post by saying you wanted a "very commercial pro sound" and you have to define just how much you are willing to invest to get it there.

Something more for you to ponder....;)

Good luck man...

zip >>
 
Nice website BTW....checked it out. I've got a friend who turned down an offer to write in Nashville. The guy's a brilliant writer and I think he should have gone for it but...I'm not him.

zip >>
 
One question Zip- DOES THE INVESTING EVER END?!?!?! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, I know absolutely nothing about pres. I just got one becuase I needed one. The rest is history. I have never minded spending money on things that I want or need (as long as I remember that there are things my 5 year old and my 5 year old acting wife wants too) But where exactly do you draw the line? My wife used to literally hate me and the studio due to the fact that we invested so much in it and have received so little from outside sources. I tried so hard to explain that making money is wonderful and all, but that it was just as much if not more a hobby that I love. I told her the other day I would love to just be able to collect Disney ornaments or something. IT WOULD BE SO MUCH EASIER. I don't know about you Zip, but looking at music gear makes my head spin. And whats worse- looking at computer hardware gives me headache.
Okay, enough feeling sorry for myself. Everyone on this site is pbviously going through the same distress or has in the past at some point. My biggest obstacle was you know who, but I think we finally worked it out. Either that or she just gave up- which is just as well.
What kind of Pre do you like? I want something simple but very effective. Believe it or not the Behringer was RECOMMENDED......
 
end to the investment????

Uh....no...LOL!! ;)

Actually there is IF you know how far you want to go.

If you want REAL big boy studio sound you will need GOBS of very pricy stuff. 2" tape,compressors,limiters,effect units,ADAT's,pricy pres,pricy boards...well you get the picture.

PLUS you need to learn how to use all this stuff!! If the total top end is what you are after >> GO TO A QUALITY STUDIO and drop 100 to 150 an hour!!

If on the other hand you can settle for something a bit less than perfection you can go various routes to get there...

...I chose mine...ProTools!! So what I will have into my system when complete ???...

PC = $1200
Presonus Bluetube Stereo Pre = $170
AT 4033 mic = $400
Pair of JBL 25 monitors = $500
RNC compressor = $180
Protools / Digi 001 system = $1000
adapters / stand-boom/ cords / headphones = $200

So all totalled - when I am done it will be about $3600 bucks...

But after I researched - it was the system I wanted to (still am;)) build to meet my needs...

But I diverge!! :p

A good Roland "all-in-one" DAW will run you 5 or 6 grand.

As for a reco on pres I am not an expert by any means...I would post seperately with a price range and get some other feedback. Try a search on mic preamps first and if nothing try posting about the subject.

I have heard really good things about Focusrite pres and the higher end Presonus (MP20?)

I like what I have - some might puke on it! It all depends on what you want.

I hope this helps and doesn't make all this harder than it already is...:p;) The good news is you are already a good way there!!

good luck shopping!!

zip >>
 
My Lord Zip..... You have spnt some money on your setup. The reason I am in (Or should I say used to be) in so much trouble is as of two weeks ago when I ordered the Bass POD, I have invested over $20,000 in the last 10 months on my studio. That includes my $1600 guitar and $1000 Yamaha Keyboard and Cables Cables Cables.......... I think I have over a grand in cables and spent $30 more today for stinking headphone cable extensions. I have three headphones at over $100 a piece. The list keeps going and going..... Also, when I built my computer RAM was at its peak at a buck a MEG for PC 133 and I have 640.... I know I could have waited, but I didn't want to- just like all grown up little boys...... Of course the building I use was a big portion at around $3500. It is seperate from my house. I did not know I could get pro tools for that price or I would have gone that route, but I understood a pro tools setup would cost me around $6000 to $8000, so I didn;t even bother. I got the Cubase Producer pack (recorder and wavelab with lots of nice plug-ins) for around $700.
 
You know I do get tired of all this Behringer B.S.

You are talking about a 8x2 mixer with 4 preamps that costs $150 for crying out loud. OF COURSE its not going to sound as good as a $1000 Mackie. But I still say they are a good solution for a kid just starting out, or someone who is just trying to make some quick MP3's with his SM-57 in his basement.

Horse, sounds like you've outgrown your mixer. I think you will still find it useful for things like keyboard sub-mixing, or monitor or headphone mixing.

And no, the investing never ends.

OK stand back zip - I'm going to do it!

BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER BEHRINGER

Have a nice day :D
 
RWhite....LOL!!!!!!!!! You're killin' me!!

I do believe I "eluded" to that very weakness and the fact it could still be used. :)

And Hshoe...I know you have to be kidding....$3500 for me vs $20,000 for you?? Shit man - If I had 20 grand in gear I would kick some serious recording ASS!! :)

REPLACE THE BEHRINGER!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way...the 8in-8out digi 001 setup is damn nice for a grand...you must be talking about a Protools MIX system. Hell after investing that kind of $$ hire me to be your engineer.....;):D
 
These posts are great. It sounds like you have a ton of great gear. Mabe too much. There are a few things I learned about recording that I'll never forget

1.) You can't polish a turd!! -- The best equipment cannot fix
crummy basics. Take the time to record good, quality tracks. Tracks that can stand on their own without effects, eq, etc.

2.) KISS- Keep It Simple Stupid- Again, don't over do it. Go easy on the micing. Did you ever notice that some of the best and warmest recordings were done with a few mics and live to 2-track? Listen to some of the old Miles Davis recordings. They weren't over processed, compressed, etc.

3.) Listen- Listen to tons of recorded material through your recording system. Try all different types of music. Such as pop, jazz, country, classical. You may hate the material but you are learning. These recordings are refining your ears. Write down what you like about certain songs and try to figure out how it was achieved, then try to duplicate it.

4.) Know your gear- Learn one piece of gear at a time. You should know it inside and out before moving on. It's really important to know what your equipment does and where to find the things your looking for when you go to create a mix. You're a craftsman and these are your tools.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Oh yeah, you might want to try creating a good clean even mix that you are happy with. Reimport it as a 2-track recording. Now EQ the total product and compress it. Try boosting 18-20k for an airy effect and maybe 63-100k for a little more punch. Go easy on the eq though and don't overcompress the mix. That's what the radio station will do to your finished product!!
 
Balls-
and your a newbie?!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA!!!
Thanks for the information. Sounds like you really know what you are doing. I don't compress very much at all except for the steel guitar. As far as eq, I like to drop db more than boost. Especially on acoustic guitar around 1K, say around -4-9 db. Maybe overdoing it, but I really am a newbie with a ton of too much stuff. Truth is, I got in way over my head, but it is a headache I enjoy having. It gets to be overwhelming though. I wish there were some kind of basic mixing/eq cheat sheet I could have. It really seems like my mix is flat (I MEAN IT HAS NO LIFE AT ALL)when played on a car or home stereo, but sounds unbelievably awesome in the studio when I fix eq on my desktop monitor. I am trying to find a way to achieve that sound by duplicating eq internally to what my desktop mixer is doing, but the end result is overdone. Maybe I should try cutting the eq in half- for instance:

My desktop mixer's (5 band eq) 1K is at approx -6dB. Everything else is at 0 dB with the exception of 12K is boosted to say about +6 for that attacking "sching" which I love.
This is a perfect sound for most types of music I play recording or commercial.

Maybe I should take my mixdown (for starters) and apply half of that eq or maybe 1/4 internally- so instead of 1K @ -6, make it -3 or -1.5 while monitoring my desktop speakers at true flat (eq bypass). I guess it will take some more practice (DAMMIT I HATE MY REAL JOB!!! IT TAKES AWAY FROM WHAT I LOVE TO DO MOST!!!!- but it does pay the bills) I know that my terminology is probably not correct, so please try to understand what I am saying and correct me if I used the wrong words... PLEASE SOMEBODY!!! RESPOND!! HELP ME I AM SINKING!!! MY HEAD IS SPINNING AGAIN!!!
 
Hey horseshoe,

Can I take my next vacation in your studio?:D

You've got a pile of stuff there. I think you've managed to overload yourself!!! You've got a zillion things and can't get intimate with any of them.

I helped my brother build a DAW with a MOTU 2408 tied into his mixer, and I swear it was 6 months before he started recording. But he isn't REALLY recording, just kinda live trax during jams to listen to as reference.

I'm more into recording... do I have a "Pro Sound"? Hell NO! But I continue to improve...

Time, practice, more time, experience...., research, more time...

I've found that no matter how much I learn, I also become aware of how much MORE there is to learn.......

Queue

oh yeah, don't spend too much time here, record, record, record, mix, mix, mix
 
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