Master buss order.

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PDP

PDP

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When using effects on the master buss is there a particular order ? I use a stereo enhancer,EQ, limiter, maximizer and dither in that order. its hard to tell if the order makes a difference other than that if your increasing gain after the limiter you get clipping. Also, is it better to just send the mix to a stereo track and then add the buss effects on that, rather than in one step?
 
I would recommend bouncing the mix out and setting up a new session for mastering. 2 separate processes. Mix and then master.

For the order of the processors used, stereo enhancers are very rare in a dedicated mastering situation so I would bag that off the bat. The closest you will find to any stereo width manipulation is through an M/S process.

If the track needs some major eq work< I would do that first. (or go back to the mix) There isn't much use compressing a track where the eq is out of wack.

Most of the time, it seems best to get the tonal balance straightened away with eq and then move on to the dynamic balance.

If the track is solid to begin with, less processing will be needed for either camp. Dither last.
Overall, other than the enhancer, the order you have for your processing seems good.(always dependent on the song) 2 cents.
 
Terra said:
x2 , keep it simple.
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Ditto that.

Of the gear you listed, the MOST you should need should be maybe some EQ and some compression, possibly followed by a little limiting.

Dither only if and after you're converting from 24-bit to 16-bit, and only if you actually have a decent set of dither algorithms to choose from. The rest of the stuff, never mind.

G.
 
two steps....i have read or heard no advice that says it should be anything but two steps...adding dither says that this is your finished product yet this should only be the mixing stage...dither should be the final process after the mastering stage
 
if your increasing gain after the limiter you get clipping
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That's because a limiter can prevent that, so the limiter should be the last thing in your signal chain, in most cases. But there are a few scenarios when that would not be the case. Ive heard that some mastering engineers insert a stereo widener after the limiter. So there really inst hard rules to this and htere is no set effect order.
Cj
 
The only purpose for dither is if one has been creating their track(s) in 24 bit and they have converted the premaster to 16 bit (usually for CD compatibility). The purpose is to "smear" the values of the 16th bit of each sample after truncating off bits 17-24 in order to reduce so-called "truncation noise" caused by the imprecision of that 16th bit after truncation.

As such, dithering is indeed done only after any changes to the audio quality of the mix have been made, and even then only if and when the bit length of the samples have been truncated.

It should not be done at all to copies left at 24 bit or created from the start at 16 bit. Nor should it be done to copies to be converted to MP3 or other such compressed formats unless those copies were first truncated to 16 bit WAV before such conversions were made, in which case the dithering should happen after the 16 bit truncation but before the conversion.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
The only purpose for dither is if one has been creating their track(s) in 24 bit and they have converted the premaster to 16 bit (usually for CD compatibility). The purpose is to "smear" the values of the 16th bit of each sample after truncating off bits 17-24 in order to reduce so-called "truncation noise" caused by the imprecision of that 16th bit after truncation.
G.
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Glen,

I've slept a few night since I read Bob Katz Master book, but I thought dithering was done to smooth jitter when converting from different sampling rates rather that sample sizes. i.e. Going from 96khz to 44.1khz. Am I mistaken? If so whats that called. And in the real world is "truncation noise" an issue?

Thanks
 
It should not be done at all to copies left at 24 bit or created from the start at 16 bit.
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That's not exactly true. If your recording in 16bit and you have plugins that process with an internal 64bit engine, you should be dithering that.
Cj
 
Thanks Everyone for the info.

Clears up alot for me. While we're on this subject, a few more simple questions.

1. When I export my tracks to a Stereo file, there is no quality loss (unless I do something that uses another AD/DA conversion) Is that correct? So therefore the two stages (mix then master) have no bearing on quality(copy loss) like they did with tape? Correct?

2. The dither thing is still a bit confusing. Cubase 5.5 has a simple Apogee dither plugin that I assume is pretty good. It seems most of you agree its done at the end when your paring down to be CD compatible?

Thanks Again.
Pete
 
Audio Mastering said:
plugins that process with an internal 64bit engine, you should be dithering that.
Cj
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For example I use EZdrummer they are 16bit samples, but the plugin is considered 32bit, I'm running Cubase 5.5 (64bit) So how would the drum tracks be dithered if at all?
:confused:
 
For example I use EZdrummer they are 16bit samples, but the plugin is considered 32bit, I'm running Cubase 5.5 (64bit) So how would the drum tracks be dithered if at all?
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HUH?? Your getting windows architecture confused with audio bit depths. There completely different
A 64bit windows is different than 64bit depths. There 2 completely different things.
Apples and oranges
Cj
 
Audio Mastering said:
HUH?? Your getting windows architecture confused with audio bit depths. There completely different
A 64bit windows is different than 64bit depths. There 2 completely different things.
Apples and oranges
Cj
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Why did you say to dither between 16bit recording and 64bit engine. Did you mean if your recording 64bit? Is there a sound card that records 64bit? Give me another example of what you mean.

EZ drummer samples are recorded at 16bit depth. So if I record at 24bit thats a different rate. Are you saying they should be dithered.
 
PDP said:
The dither thing is still a bit confusing.
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I believe, and correct me if i'm wrong, that dithering should only be done when converting from 24-bit to 16 bit, (as stated earlier). The reason for this is when you convert from a higher bit-rate to a lower bit-rate, the audio samples get truncated and leaves an unwanted noise. What dithering does is smears the "noise" so when converted to 16-bit, its smoother.

Imagine a picture (digital). Now, if that picture were to be posted on the internet for example sake, there are some colors that cannot be used online, so the picture once posted becomes somewhat pixelated (the transient colors are left out, only basic colors remain). What dithering can do is take the noise in the picture and smooth out the lines to make it more natural, while still keeping the web-safe colors intact. Take that same concept and apply it to audio.

Pleaseeee correct me if i'm wrong, y'all, it's my best interpretation of the subject.

and as always, Cheers! :drunk:
 
Why did you say to dither between 16bit recording and 64bit engine
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I dont think your comprehending what I said because your confusing the 2 different things. (Windows 32 and 64 and actual bit depths and floating points)

In 16bit recording, if you have an effect that processes your audio with an internal 64bit floating point engine, you need to dither, even though your project is in 16bit, your audio is being processed in 64bit floating point.

I believe, and correct me if i'm wrong, that dithering should only be done when converting from 24-bit to 16 bit
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Not correct. If you have a plugin that processes with a 64bit internal flaoting point engine, you need to dither it, even though your in 16bit..

Its a bit confusing.. :)
 
Audio Mastering said:
even though your project is in 16bit, your audio is being processed in 64bit floating point.
:)
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Wow, yeah I got the concept now, but when would you dither? Do you dither each track thats processed in 64bit? Cubase has lots of 64bit plugs (I believe) so that would be just about every track (I process).

Thanks.
 
PDP said:
Wow, yeah I got the concept now, but when would you dither? Do you dither each track thats processed in 64bit? Cubase has lots of 64bit plugs (I believe) so that would be just about every track (I process).

Thanks.
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I believe that you dither on your final bounce of your mix
 
Yea!! Cool!! :drunk:
so you would dither only when mixing down in bit depths. Fixed or floating point bit depths.
That is the only time you need to dither.
Cj
 
I believe that you dither on your final bounce of your mix
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Not correct, what if you bounce it in the same bit depth for mastering? You do not dither when bouncing down and keeping the same bit depths

You dither only when going down in bit depths.

LOl, see its very confusing
 
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