Manufacturing, marketing, and distribution for a niche market/audience

[lo.fi.love]

Hello everyone,

For those of you who don't remember my introduction to the Home Recording BBS last year, and specifically the Analog Only forum, I came into recording with the idea that I would record live shows and distribute the finished product on cassette. It made sense at the time, since I wanted to not spend too much money on gear and also keep things simple. I was recording onto cassette using a Marantz PMD-430 field recorder and I wanted to make high-fidelity copies to sell or give away. ("High-fidelity" in this case is being used for its literal meaning: As faithful a reproduction as possible)

My tastes have changed quite a bit in the past year or so. I came into music when I discovered punk rock at age 12, going more for the intellectual part of it than the loud/aggressive parts. I still love punk, but I've found, over the past decade and a half, that the format is too limiting and its audience for the most part is actually fairly conservative as far as taste and open-mindedness are concerned.

I've always been interested in experimental music along the lines of 1950s/1960s Musique Concrete and later artists such as Tangerine Dream and Can, but I never really explored these kinds of music until I had the gear and technical ability to explore it on my own as an artist and musician. This music excites me just as much as when I first discovered the hallmarks of the thought-provoking, intellectual side of punk (Crass, Dead Kennedys, Flux Of Pink Indians, etc). I also appreciate it for its open-endedness and lack of rigid definitions.

My recordings and compositions have gotten more interesting, compelling, and technically proficient over the past half-year or so, and I'm currently working to build a repertoire/catalog that I will release at some later time. I also want to use this as the basis for realizing another, old dream of mine, which is to start a small record label and release works by other artists/technicians/practitioners.

That said, I'm clueless as to how I'm going to do this. I read magazines like Wire and Signal To Noise (both are great for experimental, free-form and improvised music) and it seems that there might be other people doing similar things in the United States and in other parts of the world. I want to appeal to this audience, which is comprised, for the most part, of practicing artists and niche enthusiasts. I think this will be the most sympathetic audience for what I'm doing. I'm not concerned at all about the small size of this audience because I'm doing this for my own pleasure/satisfaction and not money (necessarily). I recognize that I'll most likely lose money on this, and I'm OK with that - I have a day job that pays very well

I'm struggling with a few key decisions here. Maybe you have suggestions or opinions to offer, and you're encouraged to reply with your thoughts.

1: Distribution

To start, I hate CD-Rs. I do not take a release seriously if it's on CD-R. It says to me that the artist/label isn't taking their music seriously enough to do better. They're cheap and easy to make, which is a plus, but I think that some amount of sacrifice could be made to release the music on a medium that is more stable and also looks better. If it's important, you'll save the money necessary to do a better job.

Also, I think the CD is dead. Nobody I know, personally, buys CDs anymore, or even has a dedicated CD player, if they have a stereo at all. CD sales are in decline, while other formats (Vinyl, digital, even cassette) are on the rise, which says to me that consumers/fans are rapidly losing interest in this format. I also personally loathe CDs, for some reason that I'm not even clear on, but that's just me.

Vinyl is wonderful, and it's my eventual goal to release on vinyl, but it's too expensive for me at this point. I don't want 500 or 1,000 records to sit in storage if nobody is interested in the release. I would need to be confident that I can sell that many copies before I seriously consider it. It will be a good option when I've found a substantial audience for what I want to put out.

Digital files can be OK at higher bitrates, and distribution costs almost nothing since most web hosting companies offer practically unlimited data transfer allowances. I'm concerned, however, that offering my music (or others' music) as a MP3, WAV, or OGG will encourage people to listen to it in unsuitable players, such as iPods or laptops. The music that I want to make, and the music that I want to release for other artists, has a wider dynamic range than most of these players can handle. It will sound awful on anything less than a half-decent stereo system, or a computer with good heaphones or good speaker configuration. My fear is that many digital music consumers/listeners don't understand what "dynamic range" is or why most music sounds bad on their MacBook's speakers, and I don't want my music to be thrown away because of this misunderstanding.

Cassettes are... cassettes. We all know their drawbacks. We all know their advantages in terms of cost. We all know that few people have cassette players anymore. Cassettes can sound great when done right, and most people on this forum have the means and ability to make a really good-sounding cassette release. Since my music is all recorded with/on open reel tape, the generation path will be more "pure", perhaps, than if I import it to a digital format. Dolby B noise reduction will enable a decent dynamic range with a cleaner sound to boot. Also, I have a feeling that my target audience will accept a cassette release and will possibly appreciate it for the same reasons that I have in choosing it over other formats. Since this is a niche market, anyway, the chances are that the my target customers will have the means to play a cassette on a good stereo. That's my bet, at least.

2: Marketing

I want to know if anyone here has ever marketed their recordings. My guess is that it would make sense to advertise in the magazines that I read, since other people like myself are likely reading the same magazines. There's also blogs, and it makes sense to start conversations with blog writers and encourage them to review my releases. I will have a website for my label, with its own blog, and that will be key to making my products available and in educating potential customers on this style of music. It will also be appealing to the people who are already interested in this style of music and who understand how it's made, since they will likely be interested in the technical details of how I make my music (and how the other artists make theirs).

3. Manufacturing

The best thing I can think of would be to manufacture the releases at home, since cassette duplication houses are a) hard to find these days and b) not terribly cost effective. I have a TASCAM 302 MKII cassette deck, which has two, independently-controlled decks within it. I'll make the copies in real time, with several decks recording "Side A" from the first deck in the TASCAM, and several decks recording "Side B" from the second deck in the TASCAM. Everything will be recorded onto chrome (type II) cassettes with Dolby B noise reduction. It'll be a monster setup, with probably six or eight tape decks in all, but it's the best way to do this, I think. I've had enough experience with high-speed duplicators to understand that I don't want to go that route.

OK, long post! I hope it's been informative, or at least entertaining. I'll really appreciate any thoughts that you have to offer. I'm going to keep everyone updated on my progress, once I've built up enough material for a release.

Thanks!!

 

[jedblue]

Gee Jeff, for what it's worth, here's what I've experienced. I wouldn't call myself any sort of success in marketing and distribution of music. I have the Midas touch in reverse I think. I've always been more interested in the non mainstream side of things anyway. My first release was back in the late eighties in Dunedin, New Zealand when I made an album for a girlfriend of mine on an 80-8 and a Soundtracs 16-8-16. I loved that old board. That one we released on cassette which I mastered to hi-fi VHS and dubbed off myself on a pair of Technics TR-515 dual well cassette decks (which could record both wells at once). I think we sold maybe 200 of those and only at gigs.

Then I got well into the post punk / indie / noise / grunge scene that was big down there at the time (early to mid 90's) and me and another friend created an indie label and we went for it. We hired an old radio station and set up all the equipment there. We recorded and released eight albums in eighteen months of people we knew, respected and liked. We also upgraded the equipment to a Mackie 32-8 and a Tascam MSR-16. They were all mastered to DAT and pressed to CD in Canada if I remember rightly.

I'm mighty proud of those albums and quite a few went on to critical acclaim in the US and Europe - but all to limited sales. We'd be lucky if we'd sell a thousand of any one release all around the world despite good connections with people like Raffmond in Germany and Sub Pop in Seattle. A top seller was 2,000. We had an international distribution network but sales were pretty small. Student radio and student press was an important part of what little promotion we were able to generate. Advertising was largely non existant for us - too expensive. Mail order was the prime indie distribution method in those days.

Most of the artists we recorded and released were already well plugged into that international post punk network anyway so we used those connections to gain the distribution. We pulled the pin when we realised that we just didn't have the sales numbers to keep it all going.

Our engineering partner who did all the recording, mixing and mastering now seems to be permanently on tour with The Kings of Leon so he's gone on to great things in tour management.

Battered and bruised by the expense of it all, I went quiet for many years and moved to Australia after years of travelling the globe and working for big corporations with buckets of money. There is very little left now of that time except fading memories, a few pieces of old equipment and eight excellent albums. Many of the artists we recorded are still performing today though.

Years later when I stopped travelling and got back into playing, I bought a little Boss BR1600 and recorded an album with the band I was playing with at the time. That was a lot of fun and I'd just make the cd-r's up as we needed them and we'd sell them at gigs. We didn't ever go for distribution. There were a mixture of originals and covers on it but none of them were really good enough to do anything in my opinion. Maybe we sold 200, again all to friends and at gigs before it broke up.

The next one was another home recorded 'live to eight track' digital effort with a delta blues band I played bass with that used to play down at the local school weekend markets for 3 hours once a month. Again I used to make those cd-r's 20 at a time as we needed them. We used to sell about 15 of those a gig and we must have sold 500 copies or more over the two years that that band existed. It's a neato little record that one.

Then I produced another full blown studio album for another friend on a big Raindirk analog desk to Pro Tools with all the whizz bang mikes and outboards. It was expensive but it is a great sounding album of indie jazz / funk. We professionally pressed a thousand of those and sent maybe 50 out to radio stations and the rest we tried to sell. No one in the distribution chain was interested. We maybe sold 50 units through record stores in twelve months. But we sold the rest, all 900, at gigs in less than 12 months.

Downloads were available then too but they've never been a successfull format for anything we've ever done.

Somewhere in there was an ep of originals by the first band, also recorded at the big studio. Again - nothing, just sales at gigs.

That was enough of attempting anything with 'the industry' for me. If you're not plugged in you have no show. And if you're not already successfull then the industry does not want to know you.

This is what I know - if you don't gig you don't sell. And if you keep your costs under control and just make what you need you can easily turn a profit. The most profitable album we made was the one for the little market delta blues band. One afternoon to record it at home, 2 days of my time to mix and master it. A couple of days to set up the artwork then maybe 1/4 of a day to burn, print and assemble a batch of twenty copies. I worked out the cost at about $5 each and we'd sell them for $15. I'd take $5 to cover the cost and time for manufacture and the remaining $10 we'd split four ways. So it was $7.50 for me and $2.50 each for the other three members per copy. You'd never get a royalty deal like that out of anyone. It was money for jam.

But it broke up.

Now we have the little cassette label just because I like mucking around in analog and I like the artistic wholistic approach to it all that you can do with cassette. I've got a bunch of equipment up in my attic that I use for experimentation, mixing and mastering and cassette and cd-r creation. I've come to a great arrangement with our local indie studio - Goose - where the Studer desk, Revox recorder and my good mikes are kept for them to use on their clients and us to use on our stuff at a good room rate. It works very well. We've probably had 10 all analog sessions down there in the few months that it's been installed. He gets the gear for use and we get the benefit of a studio room and equipment that we just don't have at home.

The noise band has produced a few cassingles but is not really ready for gigging yet so tiny sales result. And not too many people like cassettes anyway. It'll be gigging a few times a month in the next couple of months.

Who cares if no one really likes cassettes any more, I do.

The solo album I'm working on at the moment will go on cassette and cd-r because Davey also gigs a bit. There'll only be maybe 20 copies of the cassette album made because they'll follow the hand_art_sound method of craft. But we will be making cd-r's as well. They will be sold to the artist in bundles of 10 or 20 at $10 each and he will sell them at his gigs for whatever he can get for them. When he needs more, we'll make more.

Same thing with a live two two track ep we've done for another friend's boogie band. That's a great sounding live to two track all analog ep. They've paid for that one though so we'll do the cassettes and they'll do the cd's. They are constantly gigging, two to four gigs a week. And they sell most of their cd's at gigs even though they're on iTunes and CD Baby.

In fact pretty much everything we'll be doing from now will go on both formats. If anything sells in any volume, it'll be the cd-r's. They're easy to make on the computer and people can play them. It's the weirdo's like me who like cassette.

I make the cassettes myself on my old Akai GX-95 Reference Master deck which was a top deck of it's day. There's so few made of each cassette release that it's not really a bother. And its fun to operate. I also have an old Telex duplicator I got of eBay for fifty bucks that is extremely, ah, mechanical, in its operation. But it does quite a good job and it's fast.

And that's the model - very limited cassette releases as 'soundart' for the micro label and the cd-r's made as required to be sold at shows by the artist - which they pay for up front. No other form of physical distribution or downloads. I ferkin' hate mp3's and that whole download thing, and it undermines the 'sold at gigs' model anyway. We do a good job on the cd-r's. With inkjet printers handling the wheels, a color laser doing the inserts and with care on the artwork, very few people would notice that they are hand made at home.

The artist keeps the publishing rights and label keeps the mechanical royalties for the recordings. I still have the mechanical royalties for everything I've commercially produced or released if I ever want to do anything with them again - maybe 15 full albums worth.

It's all small beans though. But it's small beans because I like it that way. It keeps it all nice and local for a dude who's kind of over travelling now and likes to muck about with analog gear and original sound art.

Follow your muse. Try a lot of stuff and keep what works. It doesn't matter where you start. Just do it. Get it out there. It's all in a big state of flux at the moment anyway. Start networking. Use the net for communication and networking, it's brilliant for that. Start with what you've got and have fun. Shit, I did and I still do but.....

Play live at every opportunity. Create your own gigging opportunities. Sold at shows..... gigging artists sell product and they sell that product at gigs. Put it on the net and nothing'll happen if there's no gigs and no network. If there are gigs and they create a noise and it's on the net, it'll just get stolen.

If the artist breaks, then the industry notices. Nobody I've every worked with has, but some have been cited as critical influences on artist who have...

Geoff

 

[lonewhitefly]

I have self-released one album with very limited distribution ... but in
my experience vinyl and CD are what people will buy. I completed an
album last year, 20 songs, psych/folk style. I wanted to press vinyl
but I was not sure if the material was strong enough to make a
commitment to 300 and I would then need to edit the album and I would
have to charge significantly more per unit. it was kind of a test. I
did not really want to go the digital route, since it was recorded
all-analog, so I came up with an idea to release it on cassette, 1/4"
open reel (4-track, 3 3/4 ips), and 8-track cartridge. I eventually
decided against the 8-track (due to difficulties with locating a
suitable recorder and cost of NOS blank tapes) and added a CD option
because I knew many people who would not even be able to play it if I
didn't, and it was more important for me to be able to include anyone
interested.

Ultimately, almost all of the sales have been for the CD (which is
packaged like a mini-LP). I sold 3 reels (to old-school audio
enthusiasts who were surprised to see a new release on tape) and only 2
cassettes. I don't have an exact number for CD sales, but I have
distributed about 150 (not sure how many were sales and how many were
given away). It helps that the CD is packaged in a cardboard sleeve w/
B&W cover art, an inner sleeve, printed lyrics, and a sticker inside.
The album ended up being more successful than I originally planned, and
I would have really done myself a disservice if I had not included the
CD. For instance, one track was selected for "song of the day" on KUT
radio here in Austin because I sent them the disc.

Ultimately, I realized that messing around with consumer tape formats
was just another way of saying I love analog but I cannot afford to
press vinyl.
After a few months, I decided against even offering the tape options
because it became more of a hassle than it was worth.

So the next step is a 7". We are doing a split with another band and
pressing 300 total. Since I was able to move 150 of the album, I think
I should be able to move the 150 records and the other band has more of
a following, college radio, etc.

My experience is very limited, but my gut instinct tells me in this new
era advertising is probably more important that distribution. Everyone
has distribution. All you have to do is start a myspace page, etc and
have a paypal account. So it's basically getting the word out about
your music. Of course people have to like it and be interested in it as
well.

so it really depends on your goals. Personaly, I would not consider
consumer tape formats again based on my experience. I would definitely
focus on vinyl for my prospective audience.

I think it is important to be one's self, to be unique and to have
clarity of vision with musical projects. But only up to a certain
point. Compromises must always be made. If not, in some ways it can
end up self-defeating. Getting my music out there was more important to
me than the medium. That the ultimate medium for me is vinyl anyway,
anything else is going to be compromised.

You can press 300 7" vinyls for about $700. if you get a split together
with another band, that's only $350. you just have to commit to what
you're putting out and keep it under 14 minutes total.

http://www.myspace.com/magicherovsrockpeople

 

[lo.fi.love]

Thanks for the replies! Lonewhitefly: Did you have a CD manufactured for you, or did you do it yourself on CDR?

I suppose the CD route isn't all that bad. I want to end up on vinyl, but I need to know that I have an audience before I make the investment - especially since I want to release 45rpm 12" records, and that could end up costing quite a bit more to do.

For what it's worth, the "Maxi Single"/12" 45rpm disc has a special appeal to me. It benefits from better sound quality than a 33rpm disc, and holds up to 12:00 of music on each side, which would be ideal for longer pieces.

I suppose, then, that the best option for entering "The Market" would be to release first on limited-run CD. Get it into peoples' hands, even if it means send away copies for free. Then, vinyl.

 

[lonewhitefly]

hey,

i make them with CD-Rs as I go along, usually 25 or so at a time.

 

[Mr. Honesty]

ziziyo

Im not an expert, and my experience is only my own, so it probably will vary somewhat with others experiences.

The musical project i am involved in released an album awhile back. Mostly people stole it from myspace. Its too easy to steal music these days, and there is no way to fight back except to embrace it and try to create something that the person will want to own. But youd have to know that if 10 people are into your music enough to steal it, only 1 or 2 would actually buy it. So that means vinyl records in small hand numbered quantities are the way to go. The only problem with that is trying to find a vinyl maker who will work in small quantities. There is a trick to that, which is to bypass large companies and seek out vinyl enthusiasts who still cut the records by hand. They exist, no different than you who want to start a label to fulfill a personal dream rather than make alot of money, there are people out there who like effing around with vinyl all day and night and like cutting records by hand. Look around for bands that have made 20-50 limited copies and ask them who made the records for them. Thats how you can get yours made in smaller numbers, which is WAY more likely to turn a profit or break even rather than require you to repeatedly sink money into amounts that you cant move fast enough. Along with the vinyl, you provide the buyer with a download code so they can download the album as well. Because as fantastic as vinyl is, most people have ipods etc so it makes sense to give them the best of both worlds for their money (the most tangible and the most practical).

We were contacted awhile back by a vinyl enthusiast from London who wanted to put out a single for us. He paid for, designed, and handmade the jackets for us. He made 300, and paid us like 50 of the records. He had already sold his within like 2 weeks. I believe that he had connections to small record shops that are always looking for new strange but sellable vinyl to keep their shop contemporary and unique-ish. So he must have sold 10-20 copies to each record store on his list in order to move the records that fast. So i believe that this is the way to operate small time labels:

1. Select only bands with great music, regardless of style.
2. Make contacts with vinyl makers willing to make small runs cheaply.
3. Hand make all record jackets to save printing costs.
4. Play up the tangible element of vinyl with things such as hand numbering, colored vinyl, covers that are each unique etc.
5. Make connections with smaller records shops who will in time buy records from you in small numbers as soon as they are finished based on the high quality of your records in both presentation and musical quality.
6. Stay small and only grow when demand dictates you produce more volume.

I personally would rather have 10 FANTASTIC small time bands on my label and only sell 50 of their custom made vinyl albums each than have a bunch of shitty music im pushing in the 1000s that i dont believe in or even enjoy. I think staying small but brilliant is the secret.

 

[Outlaws]

I'm concerned, however, that offering my music (or others' music) as a MP3, WAV, or OGG will encourage people to listen to it in unsuitable players, such as iPods or laptops. The music that I want to make, and the music that I want to release for other artists, has a wider dynamic range than most of these players can handle. It will sound awful on anything less than a half-decent stereo system, or a computer with good heaphones or good speaker configuration. My fear is that many digital music consumers/listeners don't understand what "dynamic range" is or why most music sounds bad on their MacBook's speakers, and I don't want my music to be thrown away because of this misunderstanding.

Just a preface, I buy music on vinyl. I always have and always will. I even have a consumer quadraphonic reel to reel. I like quality music, and I do like analog. That said, I might ruffle some feathers because I do not consider cassette to be on the same level as "analog" when dealing with open reel.


So do you think any music sounds good on an iPod? Because 99% of the population does not care about anything over 128kbs on earbuds. It is a fact, sad as some of us would feel, but it is just the way it is.
IMO, you need to get your music mastered so it sound "good" on as many platforms as possible. Dynamics are great, but if you want to force people to listen on a decent system, you will have to release a physical record, otherwise its getting ripped to the iPod/HD.

I am not an expert on the dynamic range of a cassette tape, but I refuse to believe it is that much better than a 320kbs MP3...infact, I don't think it is at all. My iPod when driving sound 100x times better than any tape deck I ever had ever did...including my Onkyo going into my home system, obviously nothing audiophile, but literally 10x better than what most people had for tape players.

But back to "dynamic range", Led Zeppelin is listened to on MacBooks. Pink Floyd is too. Those are very "dynamic" from a sound stand point, and yet people still love their music on the format. No one is going to throw your music out because its too "dynamic" for their systems, they will throw it out because it sucks, unless it doesn't suck. Again, you need to get it mastered. It doesn't have to be squashed, but ALL recorded music can stand a little magic touch to compensate for the fact that it won't be played on your system.

And for the record, I don't consider bands like Flux to be dynamic, but then they did get into a more weird style later on which I never gave a second listen to. I used to have a lot of old anarcho punk records though. Dynamics is not a word I would use on any of them...until you get into later Subhumans albums. They started to have decent sound quality and playing dynamics, which got a lot better with Culture Shock and almost to an epic level at times with Citizen Fish.

 

[lo.fi.love]

I'm replying to a few parts of your post, Outlaws, and thank you very much for responding (underlines are mine for emphasis):

Just a preface, I buy music on vinyl. I always have and always will. I even have a consumer quadraphonic reel to reel. I like quality music, and I do like analog. That said, I might ruffle some feathers because I do not consider cassette to be on the same level as "analog" when dealing with open reel.

Well, of course. Cassette isn't audiophile-quality, not by a million miles. We all know this. I think I'm suffering from a delusion where serious fans of this kind of music will pick up a cassette release and play it on a Nakamichi deck. *I* don't own a Nakamichi deck, despite my foolish romantic feelings for cassette, but I have a really nice Denon deck for my stereo. That thing makes any cassette sound great. "You can't polish a turd" - I can't remember where I heard that but I love to say it - but sometimes you can do an OK job in difficult situations.

I think I've already decided against a cassette release, but I'm throwing this in here.

So do you think any music sounds good on an iPod? Because 99% of the population does not care about anything over 128kbs on earbuds.

Most people don't care about these things, but I think that devoted music listeners do. I seriously doubt that people who listen to Beyonce will give two thoughts about my music. And most contemporary popular music is "optimized" (see: highly compressed) for lousy players anyway, which is even more reason to avoid that audience.

It is a fact, sad as some of us would feel, but it is just the way it is.
IMO, you need to get your music mastered so it sound "good" on as many platforms as possible.

Agreed, 100%. At some point, when budget (or pound-foolishness) allows, I'll hand it off to a professional engineer. I'm doing the best that I can with what I've got (gear and skill), which means that I'm at a significant disadvantage in that area. I'm a quick study and perfectionist so it's only a matter of time before I start making Really Good Masters For An Amateur, but I can't match what a real professional is capable of... not at all.

Dynamics are great, but if you want to force people to listen on a decent system, you will have to release a physical record, otherwise its getting ripped to the iPod/HD.

Do you think that offering digital files with high a bitrate/resolution will help at all? I mean, if you bypass the physical medium entirely... just offer the digital file. I don't think I'm interested in this, personally, but I want your opinion.

I am not an expert on the dynamic range of a cassette tape, but I refuse to believe it is that much better than a 320kbs MP3...infact, I don't think it is at all. My iPod when driving sound 100x times better than any tape deck I ever had ever did...including my Onkyo going into my home system, obviously nothing audiophile, but literally 10x better than what most people had for tape players.

You're totally right here, but my argument is that I don't want people to play the MP3 on their MacBook's built-in internal speakers, for example. That s--t sounds worse than a Walkman with $3.00 Walgreens headphones.

But back to "dynamic range", Led Zeppelin is listened to on MacBooks. Pink Floyd is too. Those are very "dynamic" from a sound stand point, and yet people still love their music on the format. No one is going to throw your music out because its too "dynamic" for their systems, they will throw it out because it sucks, unless it doesn't suck.

I love to listen to poorly-recorded great performances. I think most people do... as long as they can get a feel for what the artist was going for at the time of performance. What I'm saying, though, is that I'm afraid most people will say "Oh, yeah, it sounded kinda neat but it sounded terrible on my [insert product name]."

And for the record, I don't consider bands like Flux to be dynamic, but then they did get into a more weird style later on which I never gave a second listen to. I used to have a lot of old anarcho punk records though. Dynamics is not a word I would use on any of them...until you get into later Subhumans albums. They started to have decent sound quality and playing dynamics, which got a lot better with Culture Shock and almost to an epic level at times with Citizen Fish.

Again... poorly recorded, but great performances Bad Brains' "Big Takeover", from the self-titled album, is a great example. It sounds awful. Tinny. Sheer noise. But listening to it is like drinking six cups of coffee. Practically all of the early SST recordings were engineered by the same guy (Spot), and even though he got better with each release, the early stuff is poor-quality from a technical standpoint. Regardless, those albums still send a shock up my spine every time I listen to them