Mandatory reading re: guitar cables

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mshilarious

mshilarious

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Very interesting thread I just staggered across, most of the way down this page a fellow measures a few different guitar cables:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?t=rview&goto=522963&th=53205

Are all guitar cables the same? They should be about 30pF/ft, but looky, the Monster cable is 118pF/ft!!

I also like that little applet that shows the effect of capacitive loading on a guitar pickup given a pot setting.


Be careful out there . . . it can be hard to measure low capacitance with a generic multimeter, but nearly any meter should be capable of measuring over 1nF, which is where the problems really start. That's 30 ft with a good cable but less than 10 ft with a crap cable . . . even an expensive crap cable!

Note that some of those links are to a particular manufacturer with a powered cable solution, I don't necessarily agree with that, I think it's easiest to simply lower the guitar's output impedance with a transformer or active circuit and not have to buy extra-special cabling. Or just keep your cable short.
 
Very interesting article. That graph would explain why one of the guitarists I"ve been working with has more feedback problems when he uses his favorite Monster Cable on the acoustic.
 
Zaolla claims low capacitance, but I can't find a measurement. Well, easily anyway. They have too much audiophile BS about the conductivity of silver for my tastes. If silver really provides lower capacitance, let's have a measurement.

Remember it's easier for a cable with high capacitance to have a "tone", check the graphs of the possible midrange bump in that thread.

Resistance is totally immaterial for a guitar cable.
 
LDS said:
Very interesting article. That graph would explain why one of the guitarists I"ve been working with has more feedback problems when he uses his favorite Monster Cable on the acoustic.
Click to expand...

Hard to say, most acoustics have a buffered output and would thus not produce that effect. Cables can also be microphonic, but I don't think they could get THAT microphonic.
 
No matter what the cable capacitance or conductor material is, the ultimate test is your ears and your gear.

If you like the way it sounds (after having heard several quality examples
) then it's a good cable for you.

You can go on and on with e-lab specs all day but the bottom line is your ears.
 
M1Fanatic said:
No matter what the cable capacitance or conductor material is, the ultimate test is your ears and your gear.

If you like the way it sounds (after having heard several quality examples
) then it's a good cable for you.

You can go on and on with e-lab specs all day but the bottom line is your ears.
Click to expand...

No, a good cable is one that affects the signal the least possible, and a basic understanding of physics will trump listening tests every time. It seems pretty clear that some manufacturers are selling purposely broken cables just so they will sound "different".

If, for some reason, you decide you like the sound of excessive capacitive loading, you can simply add a switch with a cap on your guitar and use a properly designed cable so that effect is selectable.
 
why? if you like a cheap cable for the sound it sure saves adding more switches to a guitar.........and spending 20 hours trying to figure out exactly how much capcitance you need to add......why chase when u already have it?
 
purerad said:
why? if you like a cheap cable for the sound it sure saves adding more switches to a guitar.........and spending 20 hours trying to figure out exactly how much capcitance you need to add......why chase when u already have it?
Click to expand...

You are missing the point--what do you think these "magic" cables cost? Note how the garden-variety cables work fine. Proco Musicmover, $0.89/ft at PartsExpress. Monster cable, $50 for 21 ft. 1nF capacitor, $0.05.

Waste your money if you like . . .

If it takes you 20 hours to figure out "how much capacitance you need to add", how are you possibly going to figure out which cable has the perfect amount? And remember this is a length-related effect, so you have to choose that too.

Answer: you buy any cheap 30pF/ft cable you like and you get on with your life. Avoid all "magic" cables, because they are either defective or lying.
 
I looked for an hour last night for capacitance figures for the Zoalla cable but came up empty handed.

It is a very clear and bright cable. The highs are bell-like without harshness or brittleness. The lows are also clear without mush, and chords are very defined with no mid-range bump or scoop. This cable is a good match for my equipment.

The VOX and Pro-co cable did not sound like this. Notice, I didn't say they sounded bad, they just didn't sound the same.

I'm using Canari mic cable, but I always have so I have nothing to compare that to.
 
It's not hard to measure; set your meter on capacitance, touch the leads together, select relative change, then put the leads on the tip and sleeve of one end of the cable (with the cable disconnected).
 
Do I divide this figure by the number of feet in the cable?
 
mshilarious said:
If, for some reason, you decide you like the sound of excessive capacitive loading, you can simply add a switch with a cap on your guitar and use a properly designed cable so that effect is selectable.
Click to expand...
If the choice is attack a vintage Les Paul with a soldering iron and modify it or plug in a different cable, I'd probably go with the cable. :D But if it's like an Epiphone or Squier or something along those lines, then that's a different story.
 
LDS said:
If the choice is attack a vintage Les Paul with a soldering iron and modify it or plug in a different cable, I'd probably go with the cable. :D But if it's like an Epiphone or Squier or something along those lines, then that's a different story.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, nobody must have had their coffee yet . . .

OK then, OPEN UP THE CABLE CONNECTOR and solder in the required capacitor, and I've still saved you $25-$30.
 
M1Fanatic said:
..It is a very clear and bright cable. The highs are bell-like without harshness or brittleness. The lows are also clear without mush, and chords are very defined with no mid-range bump or scoop..
..The VOX and Pro-co cable did not sound like this. Notice, I didn't say they sounded bad, they just didn't sound the same..
Click to expand...

Not aimed at you or your post at all but just a stepping off point. ..switching to 'jaded mode (which seems to grow stronger lately.. ;)
It seems to me you can find a whole lot of examples in this game, audio, recording, where one as opposed to 'looking for pure accuracy/fidelity', there is no 'true tone' at all. We are rather mixing and matching pieces and sounds, reacting and adjusting, to create –whatever.

From that context I'll ask, what if it (this cable, a mic, the possible examples are endless) -didn't sound the same?
Let's say we step into some (any) given situation, plug in our favorite guitar and amp, mic, whatever. What is the first thing that happens? We adjust, in any number of ways.

Huge variables at play. Move the mic an inch or so, all that.
Hell, I'd be curious, has anyone ever played the same gig, same club', three or four nights in a row and ever have your rig, the stage' sound the same to you each night? I have not.

I would propose that even the human chemistry/perception variable alone swamps many of these 'differences.
Remember, this coming from the context where there is no 'this is the 'real' or this is the true' tone –is where we operate most of the time!

..Third night in, hmm sounds a little scooped', better back the mid back up a bit'.
See where I'm coming from here?
 
mshilarious said:
No, a good cable is one that affects the signal the least possible, and a basic understanding of physics will trump listening tests every time. It seems pretty clear that some manufacturers are selling purposely broken cables just so they will sound "different".
Click to expand...

mshilarious, you know way more about the physics of this than I do, so I'm not going to question your far superiour grasp on that.

That said, I disagree with you on this, and I think it's because your knowledge is getting in the way of your objectivity, if that makes any sense. A cable that affects your signal the least possible is maybe a theoretically better cable, in that it does what we expect a cable to do with the least interference, yes.

However, look at the rest of your guitar rig - pickups that don't really provide full frequency input and drop off between 5hz and 8hz or so, depending on model, amplifiers that are designed to clip on both the input and output stage, "tone" controls that cut out certain parts of the signal, and speakers that are nowhere close to full frequency. You've also talked at length about inefficiencies in the ways guitars are wired that cause further problems. Obviously, nowhere else in the signal chain are you really after a component that colors the tone the least - why should a cable be any different? Amps that intentionally distort at low volumes, or pickups that are mostly concentrated below 6khz are all easily more "inefficient" than a lot of guitar cables.

The way I see it, guitarists have been using, and growing up listening to, the sound of very inefficient, non-full-frequency gear for generations now. It's part of the sound of the electric guitar, and that sound is why we all play today. I think it's important to pay attention to the science behind gear too and it can be very useful in debunking bloated marketing claims, but the ultimate question is, "Yes, but how does it SOUND?" If in a double blind test I think a less-efficient cable sounds better in my rig than a more efficient one, then I'm obviously not going to care at all about the science, since the real-world tone is working for me, right?

I don't buy into a lot of the cable hype either (all I care is they don't get twisted up on me! :mad:), but a guitar isn't an exercise in electrical engineering purity, it's a real-world musical instrument, and I care way more how it stacks up against the later than the former.
 
The whole point here is about money, not tone. If one likes a particular tone, it behooves one to obtain that tone in the cheapest way possible, yes? So if somebody tries to sell you an expensive cable, isn't it useful to know why that expensive cable is expensive? Is it because they really did use super-expensive materials that somehow defy the laws of physics? Or could you achieve the same result with a little bit of knowledge and a lot less money?

Also, I would add this was NOT the gear we grew up with or Hendrix used or whatever. There was only one brand of guitar cable in my hometown store, and it was the usual generic cable that was probably 30-50pF/ft. Spending vast sums of money on guitar cables is a very recent phenomenon.
 
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