M/S Technique - Simulating a Bidirectional Mic w/Two Cardioid Mics

Is it fucking groundhogs day?

This question has been answered and then obfuscated and the reclarified and then confused (the same way) and then we finally get that dude back to the correct understanding he started from and then now we're all confused again!

Here's Steve Albini on stilts talking some shit about a guitar pedal he loves.
 
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ashcat_lt said:
Is it fucking groundhogs day?

This question has been answered and then obfuscated and the reclarified and then confused (the same way) and then we finally get that dude back to the correct understanding he started from and then now we're all confused again!
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I learned something. If that hurts you so much, I'm sorry. :)
I also didn't read the first three pages in full. I doubt I'm the first to have done that.
 
To be fair, M/S by itself is not exactly intuitive, and there's a lot of half-understanding out there. This thing about combining mics to get different patterns is likewise confusing, and for much the same reason. It just doesn't seem that simple, which is why the OP happened at all. :)
 
The more I experiment with compression and EQ, the more I think [much] less is more. Lately I've been using almost none of either. M/S seems like more ways to go over the to and "in your face", but I don't want music in my face. It want it in my ears and pleasing when it's there. I'm sure it has a place in some styles or as an effect, etc, but I feel this is a pretty useless creative option from what I've explored about it.
 
4tracker said:
The more I experiment with compression and EQ, the more I think [much] less is more. Lately I've been using almost none of either. M/S seems like more ways to go over the to and "in your face", but I don't want music in my face. It want it in my ears and pleasing when it's there. I'm sure it has a place in some styles or as an effect, etc, but I feel this is a pretty useless creative option from what I've explored about it.
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M-S is just a good, solid way to capture a stereo sound field. It's not an effect and it's not about styles of music. But it does require some extra steps, and using a pair of cardioid mics adds more complications. There are pitfalls but ultimately it's not really that complicated.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
M-S is just a good, solid way to capture a stereo sound field. It's not an effect and it's not about styles of music. But it does require some extra steps, and using a pair of cardioid mics adds more complications. There are pitfalls but ultimately it's not really that complicated.
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:thumbs up:

I've used M/S for my drum OH setups almost always. It does a great job of capturing the whole kit with a nice full sound, with a sweet stereo image, and not that roomy vibe you sometimes get with spaced pair.
I've even used it a couple of times with guitar cabs (just to experiment).

In my case, I have a preamp with a built-in M/S matrix...so the most complicated part is remembering to push in the M/S button. :D
 
bouldersoundguy said:
M-S is just a good, solid way to capture a stereo sound field. It's not an effect and it's not about styles of music. But it does require some extra steps, and using a pair of cardioid mics adds more complications. There are pitfalls but ultimately it's not really that complicated.
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Ah, yeah, I haven't dug too deep into it, but I read about it briefly in this mixing book I bought, and I thought "When would I ever use this?" and it just seemed like a way to sell people more gadgets. But, I could totally be wrong and wind up loving M/S and finding uses. I just haven't yet, as a one man band...sorry if this is OT, OP.
 
4tracker said:
Ah, yeah, I haven't dug too deep into it, but I read about it briefly in this mixing book I bought, and I thought "When would I ever use this?" and it just seemed like a way to sell people more gadgets. But, I could totally be wrong and wind up loving M/S and finding uses. I just haven't yet, as a one man band...sorry if this is OT, OP.
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It's just another stereo micing technique you can add to your arsenal. I like it because it's completely mono compatible.
 
rj-skelton said:
It's just another stereo micing technique you can add to your arsenal. I like it because it's completely mono compatible.
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Sorry, I'm an idiot and was confusing M/S with side chain compression. Doh. Just woke up. I obviously didn't read much of the thread and just felt like rambling about the side chain compression. What I was saying were my thoughts on side chain compression. M/S seems cool, but I haven't tried it. Sorry, OP.
 
4tracker said:
Sorry, I'm an idiot and was confusing M/S with side chain compression. Doh. Just woke up. I obviously didn't read much of the thread and just felt like rambling about the side chain compression. What I was saying were my thoughts on side chain compression. M/S seems cool, but I haven't tried it. Sorry, OP.
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No problem. I generally only ever use side chain compression as a ducker, even then I try to keep it subtle.
 
Steenamaroo said:
With a proper figure 8 mic in mid/side we only reverse the polarity of the right side dup because there's only a single capsule and positive pressure from the right/front creates a negative output from the fig8 mic.

If you had a positive pressure from 45 degrees front/right, it would cancel to some extent without polarity flipping, whereas the same from front/left wouldn't. (with a fig8 mid/side setup - nothing flipped)

This isn't true if we use three separate microphones.
As far as I know, you'd just point 3 mics left right and front and that's that.

The main thing that's missing from doing this, compared with an actual fig8 mic, is the desirable cancellation that happens - That's the strength of a proper mid/side setup.

TL/DR It's not mid/side with 3 mics - You don't need to flip anything.
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You are missing the point completely here, I'm afraid.

The OP's question was specifically about MS and using two cardioids facing in opposite directions to approximate a fig-8.

MS, when matrixed, give the equivalent of an XY array. MS with a cardioid mid equates to a pair of hyper-cardioids at about 110˚.

MS with an omni mid give back-to-back cardioids and MS with a fig-8 mid gives a Blumlein crossed fig-8s, but steerable.

Three cardioids is a totally different arrangement.

If you add a forward facing cardioid to a side facing fig-8 you end up with a hyper-cardioid pattern facing towards the left.

Flipping the fig-8 is to get the corresponding hyper-cardioid in the right channel.

You will find all the information on MS you need in this article by Wes Dooley and Ron Streicher. :thumbs up:
 
Hey guys,

If anyone is interested, here are some audio files so you can play around with them and see what you get. Remember its three cardioid mics, one facing left, one right and one facing the middle.

This is what I did to get my m/s. Flipped the polarity of the right mic, then summed it with the left mic into a single track, then panned it left. I duplicated this track, flipped the polarity, and panned it right. The mid mic obviously stays in the middle.

I think the technique works really well, anyway have a fiddle and see what you think.

View attachment MID.mp3, View attachment LEFT.mp3, View attachment RIGHT.mp3
 
Yeah, it is definitely passable as m/s, you get that little void area when pulling down the mid mic. Even if it is not true m/s, it would work in a mix.

Here's a question to the guru's in this thread. If I were to use m/s on a vocalist/guitar song, would I pull the mid mic back a bit during the singing to open the middle? Push it back up when not singing to fill it in again?

Eventually, I'll get around to trying it, not anytime soon.
 
Assuming you were recording the vocals separately, you could do that to make more space for the vocal. I'm not sure it's necessary, since with only a guitar and a voice, you really shouldnot have a problem finding space.
 
Chili said:
If I were to use m/s on a vocalist/guitar song, would I pull the mid mic back a bit during the singing to open the middle? Push it back up when not singing to fill it in again?
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I just plain wouldn't bother with stereo mic technique on a source that, at normal listening distances, has no meaningful width. What I have done is rotate the array 90° (up/down instead of left/right) and use it to somewhat control voice/instrument balance and then pan it all fairly close to center.
 
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