Lyrics vs. Poetry

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jack Russell
  • Start date Start date
You know, I keep nodding my head and saying, yes, yes, you are all correct: the lyrics have to be explicit in meaning, and poetry can be ambiguous. But, geeze, we are in the year 2004 folks, and pop, rock, rock and roll, prog rock, jazz, country, all of it has been around for more than half a century. There is such a deep and varied warehouse of musical history to refer to. We aren't just automatons with no brains and no memory, plugged into iPODs. [Although, that might apply to certain cretins who live out in the hills and listen to Country with a capital "C". hahahaha...]

And there are so many exceptions to this rule as to make me hesitant to completely buy into it. If there was no huge backgound of history of music and tradition in society's psyche and if any of the forms above had just begun this year, then I'd agree with the premise. But clearly, you can't just discount all the exceptions.

Would Jimmy Web have ever succeded with "MacArthur Park"?
Would Page/Plant have had the huge success with "Stairway to Heaven"?
Would Jon Anderson's oddball and impossible to interpret poetry have resulted in the huge success of Yes over several decades, beginning with the obtuse "Roundabout"?
Would an album inexplicably about the dark side of the moon become perhaps the most brilliant and commercially successful concept album/CD of the last 30 years?
And how about the success of the whole rapper genre (and all their massive cribs!)--a new form of music based, geuss what, on poetry first!

I could go on and on. No, I really do question the premise. Although, in country I'd say it does seem to apply.

One could also say that a poem is read once or twice then it is ignored. You interpret it, reach an understanding, and then put in on the shelf. You might talk about it, or say you've read it, but you'll probably never read it again. A song will be replayed a 1000 times, if you like it. So, the endless repetition lends itself to deeper possible meanings and interpretations. Lots of great songs mean different things to different listeners.
 
Hi Guys. New to the site. Been reading a few things here and there for the past day, and this thread has changed my mind on some things, I must say. I'm a singer/ lyrisist that doesn't play any instruments. After hitting 30 this year I finally had to admit to myself that, in my style of music, I am too old to be taken seriously by any record companies to make it big as a just staring artist. So I had decieded to hook up with some collaborators and start a song writting group to make and sell music for others to use.

Alot of what I have read here has made me think that I'm not cut out to be the next D. Childs or Bob Rock. Never thought of writting a song that another singer had to "feel" or "become" in order to sell it. Gotta say you guys are pretty informative.

And to go back to the original idea of this post:
I almost always write the lyrics first, and take my ideas to a musician. But as I write I usually have the music in my head to describe to them. I have written lyrics to music, but I'm not as comfortable that way. But I all depends on how the insperation hits me.

Ace S. Whyld
 
Jack, I don't think anyone would say that a well-crafted lyric is a requirment for success or popularity.

Dark Side of the Moon is not about a song, it's a sonic landscape of consciousness altering, moody sounds and sound effects. They weren't featuring lyrics.

A good track doesn't have to be a good song. I love classical music, classic Indian music, meditative stuff, instrumentals, jams, drumming, it all depends on what the track is featuring. Disco, electronica, modern dance stuff, punk, also feature not the lyric.

The thing is that when a track is featuring the lyrics, and they suck, then we have a problem.

Then you have something like Bob Marley where the music is very cool and that's about all you would need to enjoy it, but then he writes lyrics that have meaning, and then you not only sell 50 million copies but you have a classic piece of inspiration that adds value to the history of the world. A consciousness raising, inspiring collection of deeply satisfying music.
 
Well said, junplugged. Especially, "The thing is that when a track is featuring the lyrics, and they suck, then we have a problem."

I would only differ with your assessment of PF's 'Dark Side Of the Moon.' Although your hypothesis is legit for the tune "The Great Gig in the Sky" (for those who don't know, this track has a singer wailing a lot of 'ahs' and 'ooes' very emotionally, with great effect, but no words at all), can you image the song "Us and Them" with the following words:

"'Silence!' he cried from the rear
and the top brass sighed
General sat and had his tea and scones
looking outside his fort--black and white"

Instead of the brilliant line from the actual song:

"'Forward!' he cried from the rear
and the front rank died
General sat and the lines on the map
moved from side to side--black and blue"

For Ace: there are plenty of musicians at the age of 30 making it big in the music business doing what they love, so my feeling is 30 isn't too old to write the way you feel. (For what it's worth). Heck I'm 46, and I'm still writing from my guts.
 
Oh yeah, and I forgot to ad:

Elton John/Bernie Taupin to the list of success stories of 'poetry first, then songs later' list.

How could I forget them?

"Daniel, my brother...." ;)
 
elton john songs...

i never think of elton john as one of the best singers in the world, I mean hes no laura branigan or anything, yet hes made some of the best ballads and love songs, and he is very prolific.

he plays a good piano, but hes no virtuoso concert pianist, either.

so what makes him so huge? hes a good piano player, hes a good singer, but hes a GREAT song writer. Some of his better songs seem long...well, by todays "dont bore us get to the chorus...2 minute limit" pop rules. But as an experiment.....to see the importance of the exact mesh of lyrics and melody line, write out the lyrics to one of hi better songs longhand, while listening in headphones, making judicious use of the pause button.

When me and my buddy were trying to "learn" songwriting, we did this. We were really amazed when we had like 3 or 4 lines of several words repeated over and over. I mean, he changes a word here or there, or the intonation or something, but there are very few lyrics, and a lot of chorus chorus chorus.

it has to be the mesh of the melody and simple lyrics, was the conclusion we came to. Now that I know something about mixing (barely anything, but SOMEthing...) I realize that he doesnt have a real "busy" mix...a good bit of it is him and his piano...so i figure some of the tremendous emotional impact comes from the greater dynamic swing you can get from a less cluttered mix.

in an interview i recall fromsome time ago, he said that a song has to come together in like 20 mins, or he wads up the paper and throws it into the trash. When musicians are sitting around BSing about what they wish they had...this guitar, that amp, that effects unit, etc...and i am asked what I wish I had, I always say "Elton John's Garbage bags outta his dumpster". I always have to explain it, then they think its pretty profound. I just KNOW hes thrown away stuff 10 times better than anything else ill ever write.
 
Oh man he is a great writer. Add tupin to the mix and it is almost unstoppable. As far as the age thing goes, that was coming from a more "Just starting out and becoming the next big Rock Star" point of view. Yeah I could get the right band together and have enough success to live off of. But my idea for selling music to get it out to a broader base of the public, was coming form the fact that the major Recording companies are looking for the 18 to 24 year olds that the "kids" can identify with. Haven't given up by any means, was just thinking of redirection. Seems to me that I can learn a thing or two here.
 
Cheney

I totally agree with Aaron Cheney's first post about poems/lyrics. Totally right on.

Regarding Elton John, don't forget Neil Sedaka, too, who lended his talent to Elton. Crocodile Rock or Honkey Cat comes to mind, but cannot remember for sure. And lastly, Elton John has been coasting on his laurels for only about 3 decades. He stopped being great around like 1978? Island Girl was the start of his demise. Then how can the guy take a song he dedicated to Marilyn Monroe and rewrite the words of Marilyn's song, for Princess Di??? If I were Marilyn come back from the grave, I'd be miffed. My 2 cents.
 
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