live sound vs recording sound

[Chris Tondreau]

Hey there;

To some degree, I'm sure this topic has been covered to death, and I have read a great deal on it already. The dillemma that I'm experiencing, though, goes a bit beyond what is typically covered.

I know that many guitarists/producers, etc. will use a sound that is not what they would typically use in a live situation for when they are recording - for a variety of reasons. I've been playing for 20 years, and am still tweaking my live sound, but am getting closer to what I want all the time.

I have a BC Rich Bich guitar (main) and a late '70's El Degas (from when they used to make good guitars) as my "string buster." I run into an ART ECC processor (which I think is pretty good.... if any of you are familiar with Pete Lesperance from Harem Scarem - he's awesome, and I believe he uses/d one, unless there is another that looks a whole lot like it). From there, I use a Yorkville 150 watt head and 2x12 Yorkville cabinet. The amp is used primarily for power on the clean channel, as I use the ART for distortion too.

One of my key problems is with definition in my sound. My notes, chords, etc. seem to lack clear attack. This is more of a problem recording than live. What could this be due to?

I also find that when I'm recording, I have to take a lot of the mids out (pretty much gut the frequencies around 5K, or turn the mids way down on the amp) to get results that are approximating acceptable. I don't have this problem live.

I guess I should note that I have been recording with a Sure SM58 pointed on a slight angle directly at the outside of the cone of the speaker, and a TOA (which I believe is a foreign knock-off of an SM58, as it looks and sounds remarkably similar) hanging down in front of the other speaker so that it is perpendicular to it and actually leaning against the grille. The mics are plugged into a Behringer MX802 Eurorack mixer, and then into a Delta 44 soundcard into Cubase VST.

I know that the sound you hear in the room is not necessarily the sound that the mic picks up when it is right in front of the speaker, but is this gutting of the midrange frequencies typical of most recording situations? It seems to me to be counter-intuitive, in that nothing has this sort of an EQ curve naturally. At the same time, though, it kind of makes sense in that this same mid range is typically where the vocals will lie.

Part of the solution may well lie in my preamp when recording. I have achieved somewhat better results with my Peavey TMP1 mic pre.

You can listen to some samples at www.soundclick.com/christondreau and the first two songs are the worst for guitar tone. The third one is acoustic, which I have been quite happy with, and the fourth is electric, but doesn't illustrate my problems as much as the first two.

Any advice would be appreciated!!

Thanks!
Chris

For the acoustic song, I used a Rode NT1, pointing at the twelfth fret and angled slightly towards the body of the guitar about a foot or so away from it, and then into the Peavey TMP1, and the Sure SM58 pointing towards the guitar, about a two feet away from the nut, going into the Behringer mixer. It worked pretty well. I played the solos twice, and panned each take left and right. I was quite happy with how synced they were!

 

[Evildick]

Are you using the gear you use live for recording? Probably one of the main reasons that I see is that you're not running the amp at the same levels when recording as you are live. This is a good reason to get a nice compact 20-30w practice amp that you can turn up so it screams.

Another option is to stagger mics when recording from the cab you already have. Essentially, put the SM-58 (see if you can remove the pop filter to use it like a SM-57) on the edge of the cone and put the NT1 about 3 feet away from the cone. Mix and match the two and see if you like it.

I would definitely recommend looking for a smaller amp for the studio unless your neighbors don't mind.

 

[Lopp]

Your slightly off-axis position of the SM58 is going to give you a mudder sound. Nice for warmth, but it reduces clarity.

Do two things:

1. Bring the mic more towards the center of the speaker having it more perpendicular to the speaker.

2. Pull the mic back from the speaker a bit.

Both of these settings will reduce the muddiness and increase clarity. If the sound is not beefy enough, start bringing the mic closer to the cone.


Matt

 

[beaverbiscuit]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but dropping the mids isn't really the way to go, is it? I seem to remember someone here at this board giving a pretty thorough analysis of why you don't want to do that. Had something to do with the fact that the guitar is, essentially, a mid-ranged instrument. Any feedback (no pun intended, or at least not much ).

 

[Chris Tondreau]

Okay, great! Thanks! I feel like I'm getting some of the pieces I need.

Evildick.... I'll try removing the screen from the SM58. I've heard about it, but never tried it. I AM using the same gear to record that I use live, and I had it pretty loud when I recorded. I was actually thinking of trying to record at a LOWER volume, just to see what would happen.... I'm wondering if this is where the difference between solid state and tube amps step in. A tube amp won't sound all that good until you crank the pants off of it. A solid state amp can be used rather effectively at lower volumes. I'm wondering if cranking it is contributing to the undesirable qualities of the sound.... Thanks for leading towards these thoughts.

Lopp... I moved the 58 off axis for that very reason - warmth. I hadn't considered that it would reduce clarity. I'll certainly try your suggestions!

Beaverbiscui... that is exactly what I was thinking when I begrudgingly gutted the mids of the guitars. If anyone could elaborate on this, I guess we would BOTH find it most interesting!

Thanks again! Any other suggestions??

Chris
www.soundclick.com/christondreau for excerpts of my problem.

 

[Lopp]

Lopp... I moved the 58 off axis for that very reason - warmth. I hadn't considered that it would reduce clarity. I'll certainly try your suggestions!

I did the same thing myself with mic positioning experiments. Moving the mic off axis reduced the highs and gave more beef. Unfortunately, this was at the expense of presence/clarity. Especially once other instruments were added to the mix.

I would only move the mic off axis if the original guitar tone was too brittle and needed taming.

Beaverbiscui... that is exactly what I was thinking when I begrudgingly gutted the mids of the guitars. If anyone could elaborate on this, I guess we would BOTH find it most interesting!

Especially in the context of a mix, other instruments already occupy certain frequencies. For example, the kick drum and the bass guitar occupy the lower frequencies. If you remove the mid frequencies from a guitar track, you end up with all of those instruments competing for the same lower frequencies. Therefore, one instrument will mask the lower frequency of the others depending on which instrument is mixed the loudest.

Sure, a scooped out EQ on a guitar can sound balls-to-the-wall by itself. However, it will either hide itself or hide other relevant instruments in a mix. The guitar is inherently a mid frequency instrument, allow it to occupy the frequencies it was meant to occupy. The bass and kick will naturally take over adding beef to a song.


Best of luck Chris.

 

[Chris Tondreau]

Thanks, Lopp! I've got a bit of a new perspective on things and some ideas to try.

Cheers!
Chris