Live sound--dumb question?

[dreib]

When my band plays out we keep it simple and just run everything full range.(our PA) Its quick and easy and suits us well although low end is always a problem, as in not enough. My question is I have a couple of cabinets with 1 15 inch EV each and the horns are disconnected, since I have no crossover could I just use a equalizer and just cut the highs and boost the lows to act as a crossover? I know it wouldnt be as effective, but would it sound ok, or like crap?

I wont waste my time at sound check if its gonna just sound like crap with no hope of sounding good without messing with it for an hour.

Thanks!

 

[Lt. Bob]

yes you can do that. It will essentially act as an electronic crossover and, depending on the EQ, might work almost as well.
I used to do that frequently back in the days when a buncha bands would pool their rigs for a show and we'd have to figure out how to run all the different amps into all the different cabs we'd have.
Works fairly well.

I'm assuming you're talking about using a power amp just for those cabs and running the EQ in front of that amp?

 

[dreib]

yes you can do that. It will essentially act as an electronic crossover and, depending on the EQ, might work almost as well.
I used to do that frequently back in the days when a buncha bands would pool their rigs for a show and we'd have to figure out how to run all the different amps into all the different cabs we'd have.
Works fairly well.

I'm assuming you're talking about using a power amp just for those cabs and running the EQ in front of that amp?

Yep , excactly that scenario! Cool!

Thank you!

 

[mixsit]

Might want to use the eq to dump below about 40 or 50 or so as well (depending on the cabinet loading. Same may apply to both sets of speakers far as that goes.

 

[dreib]

Might want to use the eq to dump below about 40 or 50 or so as well (depending on the cabinet loading. Same may apply to both sets of speakers far as that goes.

Ok well here's what I'll have for mains....Dont laugh! 2 peavy cabs, each have 2 15's 2-10's mid horn, high horn , 400 watts per side and then these 2 EV's, one each side @ 200 watts per side?, cant remember, but anyway, those peavys for what ever reason just dont have good low end, probably mainly because i run them full range i know. Anyway I'll EQ those to get my mid - high and then EQ those EV,s to give me some more low end...Does that make sense, or should I say is that kinda what you would do given the situation?

 

[Lt. Bob]

Ok well here's what I'll have for mains....Dont laugh! 2 peavy cabs, each have 2 15's 2-10's mid horn, high horn , 400 watts per side and then these 2 EV's, one each side @ 200 watts per side?, cant remember, but anyway, those peavys for what ever reason just dont have good low end, probably mainly because i run them full range i know. Anyway I'll EQ those to get my mid - high and then EQ those EV,s to give me some more low end...Does that make sense, or should I say is that kinda what you would do given the situation?

all he was saying is that you might want to pull out some of the lowest freqs kinda like a low-cut switch.
Personally I wouldn't pull out stuff that high. About all I might do is pull down stuff below maybe 30 hz ..... it's simply to keep from overloading those woofers with deeper lows than they can handle.
.

If it were me .... I'd set the EQ flat ..... then I'd take every slider from around 400 hz and up and pull them all the way down as far down as they'll go.
I would not boost the lows at this point ...... I would leave the lows flat and just turn up the volume until you had enough bottom end.
Then you could fine-tune it some ..... if the bottoms are straining then I'd pull out some 20hz and if they're still straining pullout some 32hz or whatever the next slider is.
Then if you still want some more thump try boosting (just a little bit) maybe around 80-125hz.
That's about where I would start out IF it were me.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Maybe you could give the model numbers so we're not all just making guesses based on practically no information. What Peavey (not peavy) speakers do you have?

Graphic eqs aren't crossovers. You can sort of fake it but it will never be quite right. But until you get speakers that do what you need them to do even getting a proper crossover won't do much good. I doubt the EVs will add much, but if they're on the floor they might fill in the bass slightly. You're going to want to take the bass frequencies out of the other speakers to prevent cancellations and loss of bass response.

The power handling figure says very little about a speaker. It doesn't really indicate how loud a speaker will get or anything about its frequency response or whether it will do anything useful as an ad hoc subwoofer.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Graphic eqs aren't crossovers. You can sort of fake it but it will never be quite right.

which he said ...... but it WILL work and you can get an acceptable result without having to buy an electronic crossover. It's not the preferred way but it will work just fine if you don't have any money to buy a Xover.
You, of course, are a sound company ...... what you need for your business isn't always an absolute neccessity for just some band that plays out.

I've done sound also for a lotta years and I've had, in the past, some very nice PAs.

meh ...... for the stuff I do and my bands do adequate is often more than good enough.
When we play places that really make me wish I had my old stuff back, there usually a PA provided.

This is like that ..... if the choice is between adding a couple of 15's using a graphic for a xover just to get even a little more bottom or not doing anything at all ...... I'd go for the added 15s with a graphic everytime.

But it would be nice to know exactly what he's using. Peavey SP-2's can handle a LOT of bottom end whereas PS15's can't handle squat.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Not trying to discourage him, just trying to make the reality of the situation clear. When I got started I did all sorts of things like that with varying degrees of success. For quite a while I used a pair of small home built mains on poles over a pair of Yamaha S4115H cabs. The 4115s acted as subs and front fills while the little mains threw to the back. It was ugly but it worked acoustically. I'm sure the little mains would have been much happier with the LF filtered out.

The EVs on the floor might help, but unless they're extremely efficient their contribution won't be much. Put them by a wall for a bit more output.

 

[dreib]

Maybe you could give the model numbers so we're not all just making guesses based on practically no information. What Peavey (not peavy) speakers do you have?

Graphic eqs aren't crossovers. You can sort of fake it but it will never be quite right. But until you get speakers that do what you need them to do even getting a proper crossover won't do much good. I doubt the EVs will add much, but if they're on the floor they might fill in the bass slightly. You're going to want to take the bass frequencies out of the other speakers to prevent cancellations and loss of bass response.

The power handling figure says very little about a speaker. It doesn't really indicate how loud a speaker will get or anything about its frequency response or whether it will do anything useful as an ad hoc subwoofer.

Ok the peavEys, are 3020HT's , The EV's are just stuck in a no name cab, They are good speakers.

This is a one night gig, one time set-up kinda deal,otherwise i would just get a cross over, so cut me some slack. I do appriciate your advice, but im using what im using.

Thanks!!

 

[mixsit]

.. You're going to want to take the bass frequencies out of the other speakers to prevent cancellations and loss of bass response. ..

Not to take the existing 4-15's out right- presumably?

Where we'd be headed is cozy up' the new boxes with the existing the PV's so's they couple, make Shure' they're in phase, High Pass each to their safe low extension points, balnace/blend levels and eq the slopes to what you got to compliment each other best you can..

Least I think that's what you meant to say

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Not to take the existing 4-15's out right- presumably?

Where we'd be headed is cozy up' the new boxes with the existing the PV's so's they couple, make Shure' they're in phase, High Pass each to their safe low extension points, balnace/blend levels and eq the slopes to what you got to compliment each other best you can..

Least I think that's what you meant to say

Speakers have inherent phase properties. If the two types of speakers don't match in the LF you might not be able to use placement to get them in phase over a wide enough range to prevent bad interactions. So take the lows out of the top speakers.

Again, not saying don't try it. Just know when it's not working so you can cut your losses and get on with setting up.

 

[dreib]

Ill tell you what Ill mess around with it, and when I can feel my kick hitting me in the chest Im gonna say good enough, and then probably turn it down some.


Thanks for all your input!!

 

[mixsit]

Speakers have inherent phase properties. If the two types of speakers don't match in the LF you might not be able to use placement to get them in phase over a wide enough range to prevent bad interactions. So take the lows out of the top speakers.

Again, not saying don't try it. Just know when it's not working so you can cut your losses and get on with setting up.

Interesting about the phase, ok. But if they're both front loaded for example wouldn't be plenty close enough?
Any way if he did hp the PV's way up like that we'd (probably) end up with less kick'n bass.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Interesting about the phase, ok. But if they're both front loaded for example wouldn't be plenty close enough?
Any way if he did hp the PV's way up like that we'd (probably) end up with less kick'n bass.

I think it's mostly box resonances, and the boxes will be different so things might not match up and you could get a mix of constructive and destructive interference. But it could be okay enough to just run them all full range. It's not like I haven't done things like that and lived to tell about it.

I was reading up on those cabs. Evidently they take a lot of power to really get going, and the UHF (high tweeter) tends to burn out. And they were generally used with the 4x15" sub made to match or some other biggish sub.

 

[dreib]

I think it's mostly box resonances, and the boxes will be different so things might not match up and you could get a mix of constructive and destructive interference. But it could be okay enough to just run them all full range. It's not like I haven't done things like that and lived to tell about it.

I was reading up on those cabs. Evidently they take a lot of power to really get going, and the UHF (high tweeter) tends to burn out. And they were generally used with the 4x15" sub made to match or some other biggish sub.

Did you read that they increase in weight as they age?.... cause it sure feels like it..wait maybe thats me!