live rules of thumb

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starbuck26

starbuck26

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I learned a few things tonight:

1) Crappy places usually have crappy monitors.
2) Often times it will be difficult to hear everything.

In the gig we played tonight, the drummer had no monitors. At all. We're used to practicing like that, but in this case there were 20' high ceilings, everything else was miked up, and there were lots of funny angles that basically annihilated the usual reflections we use to hear ourselves.

I play a G&L invader through a hot rod deville. The volume on my OCD overdrive pedal was at 9 o'clock. The volume on my amp was 1.5. of 12.

First song comes and goes. I can't hear myself. I raise the volume on the OCD to 12. Keep playing. Still can't hear myself. Mid-song, I STOOOOPIDLY adjust the volume on my amp.

Suddenly the guitar was drowning everything out. So I paused to turn it down. Normally I can jump back in where I'm supposed to, but I can't hear the bass at all. So I'm looking at his fingers. Misery results.

I read something a long time ago which said "if you can't hear yourself, NEVER TURN UP."

I knew that rule, and knew it well, but failed to follow it after 2 25oz narragansetts. (crappy beers for you english folks)

Eventually I turned back down... to where I still couldn't hear a fucking thing, and played half the show like that. Sloppy.

In between the 3rd and 4th songs, I stuck my head down to get a sense of what was going on in the monitor. I had no sound whatsoever.... the bass player had some distorted-blown speaker type thing coming out which actually sounded pretty cool.

Suddenly it struck me: the sound guy is likely mixing it to sound good to HIS ears... using the FOH speakers. Maybe I'll take a gander.

I walk out to the middle of the (paltry) crowd... I could hear everything, poorly mixed, in any case. But I could hear it.

Does anyone care to share any tricks for playing live? How to deal with the fact that you sometimes can't hear a god damn thing? and how not to shit on the upper lip of your one friend who comes to listen?
 
Having a volume pedal could have helped you a bit, maybe. I couldn't live without mine...

Peace!

~Shawn
 
A good sound man can make a band sound really good, but a poor sound man can make a really good band sound like crap. The best thing to do is to arrive early enough to do a propper sound check. You need to let the sound man know exactly what and how much you need to hear in the monitors. A few extra minutes getting things right before the gig will be well worth the extra effort. You have to let the sound man know what you need to hear and then trust him to take care of the out front sound. Remember, from the stage you can't hear how it sounds out in the audience, from the sound man's position, he can't hear the monitors. Don't be affraid to ask a sound man to turn up something in the monitors, you know what you need to hear from where you are, he is only hearing the main mix.
 
I was at a practice/audition last night. The rhythm guitarist starts - way too loud. I had my TSL on the 2nd OD channel set with the volume and gian pretty much maxed out - 60watts, valve - Master volume on 8. Prescence on 8. Couldn't get ANY definition. It was just ridiculous my ears are still fucked.

I guess the rule is when in doubt, turn down.
 
Another thing to be considered is to bring a ground checker to every gig for checking the recepticles you will be using. I use the Radio Shack checker that will give green or red lights, a non existent ground will drive you crazy with hums and buzz.
I also think that too many sound techs have blown out their ears from too much volume, sub-woofers and over-amped car stereos systems, and will try to mix everything in the red.:mad:
 
starbuck26 said:
I learned a few things tonight:

1) Crappy places usually have crappy monitors.
2) Often times it will be difficult to hear everything.
Click to expand...

Do you do a sound check before the gig? They're used to tune the monitor mix also.

Grab a hot spot type monitor or two. They're not that expensive, and can be really handy when the venue comes up short on monitoring equipment.

Where's the speaker on your amp pointing? At YOU and your ears, or sitting on the floor blowing all the sound past your ankles?

Why the heck are you using such a big amp at a venue where you're gonna be miked anyway?

What's the midrange on your amp set to? More midrange will help you cut through the mix.

Why is the drummer playing so loud that he can't hear? He needs to keep a beat, not emulate an earthquake. Tell him to lay off the cymbal bashing while you're at it.
 
Moonrider said:
Where's the speaker on your amp pointing? At YOU and your ears, or sitting on the floor blowing all the sound past your ankles?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I learnt that one, and it's pretty useful. I used to just nick a chair from the bar/backstage/where ever and get my amp a good 3 feet higher than it otherwise would be just on the floor (Obviously, not for heavy amps, and you need to find a sturdy chair....)

Andrew.
 
Anfontan said:
Another thing to be considered is to bring a ground checker to every gig for checking the recepticles you will be using. I use the Radio Shack checker that will give green or red lights, a non existent ground will drive you crazy with hums and buzz.
I also think that too many sound techs have blown out their ears from too much volume, sub-woofers and over-amped car stereos systems, and will try to mix everything in the red.:mad:
Click to expand...

Excellent advice: we've all played at venues where the stage was wired up by the bartender. I watched a guy plug a PA head into an outlet he hadn't checked: white smoke billowed out of the head immediately.

Around here, PAs in clubs and dance halls are non-existent, so if you want to put together a band, you buy a sound system. That means that your own money is at risk when you plug into an electrical outlet you haven't checked.
 
lpdeluxe said:
Excellent advice: we've all played at venues where the stage was wired up by the bartender. I watched a guy plug a PA head into an outlet he hadn't checked: white smoke billowed out of the head immediately.
Around here, PAs in clubs and dance halls are non-existent, so if you want to put together a band, you buy a sound system. That means that your own money is at risk when you plug into an electrical outlet you haven't checked.
Click to expand...

Absolutely the same situation here in Southern Ill.- I have a small club system that handles smaller/medium sound jobs quite well and I sure don't want to see it go up in smoke!!!!
I joined a band several years ago and they complained that they had major problems with their P.A. whenever they played at certain clubs. I went to my first gig, started checking outlets and their stage outlets were all ungrounded. After checking some other outlets I found some properly grounded ones and the problem was solved!
 
Lot of good advice here. I'm going to put some legs on my DeVille to aim it at my skull for the next show.

My DeVille settings are usually as follows:

Treble: 6
Mids: 9
Bass: 5

I actually stopped after we completely fucked up the second song and asked the sound guy to give me more bass in my monitor. Midway through the third song I actually stuck my noggin down there to see if it was even sounding at all. It wasn't. So then I walks over to the other side and poke my head in the bass monitor. Nothing but crackly feedback. Blown speaker for sure.

On the subject of sound checks: Most of the bars/clubs we play here in Boston have 3 or 4 bands playing on any given night. The first band can usually do a sound check while everyone's loading in... cause they load right onto the stage. Other than checking levels and micing the kit ain't nobody get a full sound check. At all.

sigh. :(
 
The best thing I ever learned: get used to not hearing yourself or anyone else.
 
I must admit, I run live sound more than I make live sound. :( (That's the result of being a total gear whore and having a very robust live rig.) But I think I do well (or so the other musicians tell me) because I'm able to approach it like a musician. I'm always thinking about what I'd want up on the stage. Thus, I won't stop short of every musician being able to hear themselves.

Interesting thing is, the more work I put into making the stage work for the musicians, the better the FOH sounds. When the stage is right, the musicians just play that much better. That also usually leaves the FOH to what it's best at: true sound reinforcement--not trying to make up for what's not happening on the stage. When there's a good, balanced groove happenin' on the stage, it's just that much easier to dial the house in.
 
As someone who has played A LOT of these shows, I have two rules.

1. Only put vocals in the monitors, absolutely nothing else. Less things get screwed up this way inste4ad of trying to get a separate mix.

2. Bunch together on stage where you're hearing amplifier stage volume. For whatever reason "sound guys" at these smaller clubs want to mic absolutely everything. Guitar amps usually are fine without micing as are bass amps. The less levels that person has to screw with, the better your show will sound.
 
WhiteStrat said:
I must admit, I run live sound more than I make live sound. :( (That's the result of being a total gear whore and having a very robust live rig.) But I think I do well (or so the other musicians tell me) because I'm able to approach it like a musician. I'm always thinking about what I'd want up on the stage. Thus, I won't stop short of every musician being able to hear themselves.

Interesting thing is, the more work I put into making the stage work for the musicians, the better the FOH sounds. When the stage is right, the musicians just play that much better. That also usually leaves the FOH to what it's best at: true sound reinforcement--not trying to make up for what's not happening on the stage. When there's a good, balanced groove happenin' on the stage, it's just that much easier to dial the house in.
Click to expand...

I wish more sound guys thought like this. Unfortunately many people with sound systems (in my area anyway) use their gear more for kareokee and only care about blasting sound toward the audience. It's a lot of extra work to haul our PA to a gig but I preferr to use our system (it's not that big but more than enough for most places we play) so we can set up so we can hear what we need too. I don't mean to imply that all sound men are bad, I've worked with some who went to the trouble of making sure the band was happy with the sound before sending it to the mains.
 
As a bassist, I really only need the drums.

Weirdly, thats sometimes what's missing on stage, at a couple of shows the drummer himself couldn't hear the kick OR snare!!:eek:
..let alone I...

The soundguy fell asleep during our gig, or passed away..:o

I play right in front of drums if I can, if I can't I'm mostly screwed.
Have been thinking of getting active monitor, and micing the snare and kick to it myself!!:D

"Yeah, I'm sure you're a great soundguy, I'll just mic these drums myself anyway"
:D
 
Ive just walked on a band Ive been playing with for a year now for many reasons but the sound on stage and the lack of desire to do a proper sound check was the biggie for me, Ive got a real strong voice but end up hoarse
and unable to speak after trying to hear myself over the egos of the band

drummer is the loudest ive ever heard and still mics the kit when the venue is small, lead guitar 100 watt valve and mic'd and pointing at himself and consequently at me . Leslie cabinet three feet in the air also micd, 400watt bass , he is actuly reasonable and dosent mic his cab
No sound man, just a quick check with a perfunctioary oh that sounds good

at the last gig i proped my moniter up on two road cases figuring maybee i could hear better if it were closer but no good.
funny how people dont want to turn down or spend some time dialing it in right
The avg age is 45 with me being the youngster at 40 and you think he wanna be a rock star thing would die off at some point and guys would just want to make good sounding music, oh well thats my rant
cheers
 
One other thing to note, shite venues with small stage usually have red hot lights that are pretty low down. I'm a big guy at about 6ft 6", years back I played a gig years and got too close to the lights with my ridiculously long hair (since traded in for the respectble look) and whoosh, the fucking lot went up in a ball of flames! Another mate of mine fell over drunk on the stage and put his hand on a stage light when he was trying to stand up - it was BAD, his entire palm turned into one raging blister that took weeks to heal... looked hilarious though but he still managed to finished the set in between howls of pain and tears:eek: So yea, watch out for dodgy stage lights too!
 
Superhuman said:
... whoosh, the fucking lot went up in a ball of flames!
... looked hilarious though but he still managed to finished the set...
Click to expand...

You burn your hair off and it's the guy with the hurt hand we're meant to be laughing at?:D:p

Andrew.
 
Through the years the bands I've played with have found that monitors work best when you put as little as possible through them - just vocals preferably. I did play with a guitarist for a time that insisted on having his rig run through the monitors but it worked out OK. The sytems we were using had limited monitor bus capability so we could not do separate monitor mixes for each musician.

If I recall correctly, the worst venues for being able to hear anything on stage clearly were the really big ones (too far away from the other guitarist's rig) and the really small ones (everything mushed together and indistinguishable).

One bad habit that you can fall into is becoming completely reliant on a full mix and forgetting how to play small venues using stage volume only for the instruments,with vocals and maybe the kick drum going through the mains.

Just random thoughts, sorry if I'm rambling......:o
 
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