Live Mixing Question

[nate_dennis]

Hey guys,
As I get more involved with my church's praise team I find myself more and more frustrated. I've been using a Zoom H1 to record the music portion of service, just to hear what's working and what's not. I find that the sound is not as "sheen" as I'd like it to be and I'm not really sure what to do. I know that this is increadibly vague and I don't expect any detailed answers, but . . .

what are some tips for live sound mixing that you might have? I don't really have any outboard gear available at the moment. We use two mixers (one as a submix) and both have some decent onboard effects for reverb etc. So...not much to work with. But anything you have would be great. Sorry for the vagueness.

edit: I did not link to audiofanzine's user reviews of the H1, that must be a new "feature" . . . just for the record.

-Nate

 

[PRHunt]

In a similar situation to yourself, I have been snapping up second hand Presonus Blue Max compressors, and running bass guitar, keyboard, and acoustic guitar through one each. I find that this tightens up the sound, and gives a more authoritative bass. It evens out level differences in the playing which is good when you have players with different degrees of experience and musicianship. For singers, I have been considering a little compression here as well. I always feel that the vocals need to be clearly audible, so I push the instruments a bit lower than vox, and I have one voice that I push above the other voices as a lead.

Hope that helps just a tad! Paul

 

[Bobbsy]

Perhaps you could give us a better idea of what you think is lacking from your live mixes? Also useful might be a description of what mixers, amps and speakers you're using and a rough guide to the size and shape of your venue.

I have to say that I rarely use much compression in a live mix except maybe on a few vocals (and I'm mainly using digital mixers so I can have as much compression as I want). When you add the extra risk of feedback, far better to balance things by hand/ear.

One other question occurs: how are you using the H1 to record things and are you judging your mixes from these recordings? I ask because recordings of live events rarely give an accurate picture of how things really sound in the room--you might be doing better than you think.

Bob

 

[nate_dennis]

Well. I was thinking about it later on. Here's how I feel/hear/see things....

Yes. I'm using the H1 to review later. I'm in the crappy position of being a player/singer/sometimes leader and having to try to run sound. We actually meet in a movie theater. (The old kind where there's a stage and actually have live events too.) The H1 is on the balcony picking up the sound. Since the mixers (see later) are monophonic I don't worry too much about phase issues or whatever. SO yeah. ...

We use a phonic powerpod 740 into Phonic S715 15" 2-way speakers. I use another powerpod 820 as a submix/extra mic pres.

I think my frustration is that my mixes feel a bit like a salad, each piece is clearly heard and identified, but I don't feel like there is any unity. I want a well made stew, not a salad....does that make sense? I dunno. I was thinking about compressing the master bus before the amp. But I dunno. Thanks for the feedback.

Once I get my wave files converted to MP3 I'll post one so you can all hear. Thanks again.

 

[Bobbsy]

Thanks for the reply.

I have to say that, in trying to evaluate a mix from a two-mic recording at the back of a venue, you're on a hiding to nothing.

I've done a lot of live mixing and, one venue I used to work in a lot, did the unthinkable of having the sound mixing position in a sound proof booth viewing things through a window. To hear anything, I used to put out two good quality (AKG 451) microphones and route them to monitor quality speakers in the control room. It sounded ghastly.

During the rehearsals (it was theatre stuff), I used to spend a lot of my time setting a mix then running down two flights of stairs and through two sets of doors to stand for a moment in the auditorium before running upstairs to do the next bit of mixing. (Ah, those were the days...before my knees gave out and I retired!)

Seriously, I had to do this to get even a rough idea of how to interpret the miked sound with any sort of idea how things really sounded in the theatre. Gradually, I'd learn how things needed to sound on the mics to sound right live.

For the actual mixing, I set up a method of toggling between the mics in the auditorium and a direct feed off the mixer. Neither told me what people were really hearing but, between the two an all my running, I could turn something out.

So...it could well be that you have something near your stew already but the effect of the recording is hiding that from you. The only way you'll really know is to free yourself up from playing/leading for a few services and listening from the congregation.

Bob

 

[nate_dennis]

Thanks. I guess that's really depressing news for me. No one else in the congregation really seems to know much about running sound. I don't really have much of a way to take a break from playing.

I'm not discounting your statment . . . I'm just curious why using recorder like that isn't effective? What if I moved it durring sound check to the middle of the room where everyone sits/stands? Would that be better?

-Nate

 

[bouldersoundguy]

A microphone on the balcony won't give an accurate representation of the sound as heard by people on the floor. You can move the mic to improve the situation, but it still isn't an ear. The recording will tend to sound more reverberant than real life since human hearing can compensate for reflected sound while a mic can't.

Mixing from stage is like driving a car from the trunk. You just don't have enough information to make good decisions.

 

[nate_dennis]

The recording will tend to sound more reverberant than real life since human hearing can compensate for reflected sound while a mic can't.

Good info. I'll reposition and take into acount the reverb.

Mixing from stage is like driving a car from the trunk. You just don't have enough information to make good decisions.

LOL!!! I love it!!!

I know it's not ideal. So I do what I can. Thankfully lately the "band" has been small so it's pretty simple for someone to hear if things are balanced. But I really want things to sound better and I'm about the only half capable guy in the bunch to run sound. So... there you go. Thanks you all so much!! I am always so in awe of the willingness of this bunch to share info so freely.

 

[Bobbsy]

I'm not discounting your statment . . . I'm just curious why using recorder like that isn't effective? What if I moved it durring sound check to the middle of the room where everyone sits/stands? Would that be better?

-Nate

It's as bouldersoundguy said--a microphone reacts very differently to an empty space than the human ear does. There are all sorts of psycho-acoustic studies about why this is the case but, basically, the ear/brain combination automatically compensates for a huge amount of the "room effect" which a microphone can't. If you want further evidence of this, just look at the large number of home recordists who are shocked by how bad their bedroom sounds the first time they record a microphone in a space that sounded fine to them in "real life".

Moving the recorder closer to the sound source(s) will improve the quality of the recording but not give you any better idea of what the live mix actually sounds like.

Some bands that have this problem set up a monitor wedge for the person mixing--this still doesn't include the effect of the room on the FOH sound but at least lets him hear the mix itself.

But the best solution is to find somebody interested in sound mixing, give lots of lessons, then place him (or her) and the mixer at the back of the space. Alas, I know this can be difficult.

Bob