Live Acoustics Direct through PA.

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jaykeMURD

jaykeMURD

I sit on you.
I've seem to have come across a small predicament. My band is going to be using our PA (1k+ Watts) to amplify vocals and 2 acoustic guitars. We've used this method before, but, are dissapointed with the sound of the guitars. Both acoustics are good Takamines and have stable electronics. Is there any way to get better sound without miking the guitars? Maybe an inline preamp of some sort? I don't have a lot of experience with live amplification, so I'm hoping some of you do!
 
I bought a fishman pro EQ Platinum (~$150) which is pretty good. I've used it with a few different acoustics including a Takamine. It even makes a piezo-bridge-equipped strat sound a little like an ovation :eek: Honestly, though, it is a nice unit that has couple knobs to help you dial in the right amount of rasp and low-end to sound like you want the acoustic to sound.

Here is a link to one.

I bought mine at guitar center to try it out and took it back. I tried some other alternatives and ended up buying back the Fishman.



Edited to include link.
 
You will need some kind of preamp / eq or modeler to get rid of the piezo quack if you are going to rely on direct. If you have an internal condenser or a blended signal, a Fishman blender, a Baggs unit, pocket blender, or a Presonus Acousti-Q (horrible name, decent blender) would probably do the trick. I would look for a low impedance (XLR) output.

If I had the cash for it, I'd spring for a couple of Raven Labs DIs. Those things are astounding. Do a google search and you'll find the company. The units are in the $200 - $400 range.

Finally you may have to deal with body resonance issues; I use a soundhole plug if there is high stage volume.
 
jaykeMURD said:
I've seem to have come across a small predicament. My band is going to be using our PA (1k+ Watts) to amplify vocals and 2 acoustic guitars. We've used this method before, but, are dissapointed with the sound of the guitars. Both acoustics are good Takamines and have stable electronics. Is there any way to get better sound without miking the guitars? Maybe an inline preamp of some sort? I don't have a lot of experience with live amplification, so I'm hoping some of you do!
Click to expand...
Are you using a direct box? Or straight to the board?
 
I tried the Fishman stuff, and for the extra price tag I was not impressed.

I bought the LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI. Works fine. Has the right kind of EQ knobs to deal with feedback issues or brightness issues, includes a phase reverse switch for dealing with body resonance from the pa or monitors, has input trim and output level knobs, has XLR (effected) out to feed the board, and direct (uneffected) out (for plugging into a stage amp), and has an insert jack for diverting/looping the signal to an fx box. Very handy, and doesnt' sound too bad, pretty clean and quiet for a glorified DI box. About $150 - $175 maybe?

I've also heard good things about the Ravens.....
 
gcapel said:
Are you using a direct box? Or straight to the board?
Click to expand...

Straight to the board.

Thanks a lot guys, for the suggestions.
Also, would something like a BBE Sonic Maximizer do much overall...in terms of sound quality?
 
jaykeMURD said:
Also, would something like a BBE Sonic Maximizer do much overall...in terms of sound quality?
Click to expand...

Nope.

Get the sound right in the first place and then a BBE can add an effect, like a shimmer. But it is the easiest thing to overdo and then it sounds like garbage. I think if they marketed it as an effects box people would have more respect for it. I have one and use it occasionally for live use, but it is in the end a thoroughly artificial effect, like an overdrive box. I do have a BBE Maxcom which has a pretty nice and unobtrusive limiter for stage, as long as it just kicking in gently and only now and then.

I'd keep the focus on getting a good direct signal, as simple as possible and as much using the guitar itself as you can - setup, new strings, sit or stand and all that stuff.
 
EQ is a big deal...

start with it flat at the board and keep rolling off the sharp and harsh sounds....

works better than some things...

myself here i am looking at a few boxes to go with my guitars as well...

on the big stages where we have acoustic acts it seems they are all using baggs stuff

never had any knits about sound from those guys either!
 
I have a hypothesis on this subject. Right now, it's still sort of in the developmental phase, but I think I'm on the right track. Anywho...

I believe that a lot of what we call "the piezo quack" is actually the sound of an impedance mismatch between the guitar and the rest of the signal chain. I also believe that the piezo pickup in an ac/elect. guitar is particularly sensitive to impedance loading effects.

I have a cheap ac/elect (an Ibanez that retails new around $500) that I use with some of the acoustic gigs that my band plays from time to time. Right away, I noticed that it seemed to be uncommonly sensitive to the type of amplification that you plug it into. I have one bass rig that is so flat and neutral that it is, essentially, a full range PA system. I assumed that the Ibanez would sound best through that. WRONG! It sounded terrible and the piezo nastiness was particulary strident. This tonal characteristic changed enormously, depending upon what I plugged it into. I got the best results with that particular guitar by plugging it into a Traynor guitar amp. (Please note: it's an electric guitar amp! Who'd have thunk it?) It sounds remarkably good. No sign of a piezo quack anywhere! Since the gigs that would require me to play that guitar are all very small, intimate acoustic gigs, I simply play it through that amp. If I DID need to put it into the PA though, I'd just take the XLR out of the back of that amplifier.

Different guitars yield very different results, though. Indeed, I've heard of pros who plug their ac/elect guitars into various kinds of stomp boxes (eq, distortion, whatever) -- but without actually switching the pedal ON -- because it supposedly makes it sound better. This can only be an impedance matching effect. Now that my band has secured a drummer and returned to playing amplified electric gigs, the only acoustic that we are using on stage is a Martin with a piezo/mic system onboard. The mic feeds back too much, so we use the piezo exclusively. This guitar actually sounds pretty darned good plugged direct into the board. I also had him experiment with various stomp boxes in the signal chain, but it didn't seem to help much. The best results that we've gotten so far are to put it through a cheap Whirlwind direct box, and then into the board. Sounds really good.

My advice is to experiment with various devices to see what makes your guitar sound best live. Don't be afraid to try stuff that seems unconventional. I believe that the most critical thing is to find what will make your guitar match up best to the impedance of the board (or whatever you choose to plug it into).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
 
LISlim has used a Baggs box for some years and has an active solo gig schedule in New York. I've heard his setup - it's simple - and it's given me a lot of respect for the Baggs DI.
 
i strongly suggest you DI yer acoustic guitar first before going into the board. The important thing in capturing a "full" sound is impedance matching. i don't know whether you understand how impedence works, and if you don't it doesn't really bear much consequence, but it's still important to "obey" the impedence rules.

unless it has an active pickup, an acoustic has a high impedance, and the line input on your mixer will probably have a lower impedance, which means the guitar could lose some of its "fullness" and "life". A line-level output from an amp would be ok, or from a DI box.

the whole impedance thing is a bit complexe, but if you think of the analogy of water in a pipe its a bit simpler: the guitars output has a small pipe full of water, whereas the input of your mixer as a very fat pipe. the same amount of water is still there, its just not as full.

For impedence matching, remember the following:

"High-to-low won't go"
"Low-to-high will fly"



having said that even if the guitar has an active pickup the output my still require an impedence matcher...

hope this helps and makes sense!

MD
 
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