LDC on snare = best thing ever

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Ironklad Audio

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i was tracking a bunch of drums on saturday, and decided that due to the drummer's setup, my usual tendency of mic'ing the hi-hat would be unnecessary...so i starting thinking to myself "what can i use this last input for?" - then i remember xstatic saying a while back that he always uses a C414 under the snare

at this point, it seemed like i'd come up with a pretty good excuse to break out my recently-acquired AT4033 and stick it under the snare(along with an audix i5 on top), and much to my surprise it made all the difference in the world...perfect tone/crack out of the snare, and little dicking around with the tracks later on - a little touch of eq on each, and a tiny bit of compression on the bottom snare track to soften the attack, and voila - perfection.

i don't know why i didn't try this earlier, but for those of you who haven't, you should give it a shot...and props to those who have tossed out the suggestion in the past, because it helped out immensely with my tracks!
 
I know the only way to find out is to try it, but do you think a 57 would work under the snare, too. I have a 57 on top, and happen to have an extra one.
 
I've used a C414 under the snare with very good results. SM57 was on top.
A 57 under the snare could definetly work, if you like what you get. Like you said, the only way to know is to try. Definetly give it a shot.
 
i've tried the 57 underneath. i really didnt like it at the time. i should try again, new heads, better tuning, it might sound good this timee..
 
I've used 57s on the top and bottom to great effect. Backing the top mic off a little and pointing the bottom mic directly at the center of the snare (don't forget to reverse the phase) worked wonders. Plenty of attack and high-end from the snare wires and a lot of body from the top mic.
 
Neither here nor there but a 4033 is not a LDC.
 
Davenhurst said:
I've used 57s on the top and bottom to great effect. Backing the top mic off a little and pointing the bottom mic directly at the center of the snare (don't forget to reverse the phase) worked wonders. Plenty of attack and high-end from the snare wires and a lot of body from the top mic.
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You might not need to reverse phase, depending upon the distance both mics are from each other, AND the type of effect you are looking for! I don't personally want ANY low end on the bottom snare mic, thus, since phase cancellation effects mostly low end, having the two mics in opposing phase works well!
 
RAK said:
I've used a C414 under the snare with very good results. SM57 was on top.
A 57 under the snare could definetly work, if you like what you get. Like you said, the only way to know is to try. Definetly give it a shot.
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I actually like this in reverse. 414 on top, 57 on bottom. Try it.
 
Ford Van said:
You might not need to reverse phase, depending upon the distance both mics are from each other, AND the type of effect you are looking for! I don't personally want ANY low end on the bottom snare mic, thus, since phase cancellation effects mostly low end, having the two mics in opposing phase works well!
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Yep, fair point. The way I'm doing things, the snare sounds a little thin with the mics in opposing phase, there's very little low end coming from the bottom mic as I have it a good 3-4 inches from the snare wires, so I gets lots of nice crack and buzz without the proximity thang. Then I'm free to use the top mic for the rounded "thwack" on the head.

I guess I should have mentioned that on top of all this, I use the right "overhead" as an "underhead", placed under the ride and right crash pretty low pointing more at the bottom of the snare, so you can pick out highs with that too. Can get a bit messy with the kick but when it works it sounds sweet as. You can get good cymbal sounds and "kit image" placing "overheads" under cymbals.
 
I'm looking at my kit and I'm freaked out over how close my bass drum beater is to the bottom of the snare. What do you guys do about the un-avoidable leakege of the kik into the bottom snare mic? Gating? Or just let it ride???
 
Ford Van said:
I actually like this in reverse. 414 on top, 57 on bottom. Try it.
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that takes a lot of balls.

what if some fuckhead drummer (or a retarted non-drummer engineer :rolleyes:) smashes that thing?

about that phase thing- i must research on that. i've heard of it, but i dont know what it is..
 
RAMI said:
I'm looking at my kit and I'm freaked out over how close my bass drum beater is to the bottom of the snare. What do you guys do about the un-avoidable leakege of the kik into the bottom snare mic? Gating? Or just let it ride???
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Not really had that problem but if you're using a mic on the bottom of the snare you're probably after a bunch of high -end from it, yeah? In that case, perhaps roll off a load of low and at worst you'll be left with a small amount of attack bleeding from the kick. Perhaps it could help with definition of the kick? Could be a good thing?.....

Just freestyling.
 
RAMI said:
I'm looking at my kit and I'm freaked out over how close my bass drum beater is to the bottom of the snare. What do you guys do about the un-avoidable leakege of the kik into the bottom snare mic? Gating? Or just let it ride???
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Trigger the gate from the top snare mic for a nice full and tight sound. You can also trigger the gate with kick and toms to add a touch of rattle on those hits and really help them stand out in a mix.
 
TexRoadkill said:
Trigger the gate from the top snare mic for a nice full and tight sound. You can also trigger the gate with kick and toms to add a touch of rattle on those hits and really help them stand out in a mix.
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Thanx guys...I guess it might give it a more cohesive and natural sound to let it leak, considering whnever you hit another drum, it does make those snares rattle anyway. Time to go into the lab and experiment!!!
 
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I have tried the 414's on top and bottom snare many times. I love the way a 414 sounds on either and/or both. My problem with putting it on top is that it definately depends upon the drummer you are recording, their snare, and their hats. I have found that all too often the hats bleed too much into the top mic when using a 414 and they become uncontrollable upon mixdown. If however that drummers hats are not too sizzly, and are placed a little higher and farther from the snare and the drummer gives you a loud enough snare sound, it all works out really well.

As far as a 414 on bottom goes, it always seems to work wonderfully. I usually place the head of the 414about 1/3 of the way in from the rim of the snare, about 2 inches off the head, focused straight up at the bottom of the snare. This gives me a good blend of depth and chain sound. I also set the mic perpendicular to the snare chains so that I am not placing the mic directly under the chains. As far as kick bleed goes, with a mic placed like this, the s/n ratio of snare compared to kick is drastic so the kick never seems to be an issue. Basically, the snare is just that much louder and in a cardiod pattern, the kick beater is placed perfectly in a lobe of great pattern rejection.

I have also had success with sd condensors (oktava mk012, AKG 451 etc...) and with standard dynamic mics like an sm57. However, I have had much better luck with larger diaphragmed mics. I have also had good luck with Shure KSM32's (I know they are not LD) and my Blue Blueberry if the drummer is not hammering the snare.

As far as polarity goes, I agree alot with Ford Van on this. First off, depending on placement, the mics may already be more in phase without reversing the polarity of either top or bottom channel. Second, sometimes I will purposely reverse the polarity of one of the mics for a different "tone". Reversing the polarity of one line can really help make a deep snare have a less tubby bottom end and give it the appearance of more "crack". I also don't blindly reverse the polarity of the bottom mic. Sometimes reversing the top mic gives a better sound with the overheads and tom mics bleed.

My current favorite however deals mostly with the top mic. I almost always try and go with a condensore on bottom, but lately I have been using a beta57a and an AKG 414 taped together on the top head. The first thing I do is capsule align the two mics as best i can because in this scenario I definately want as little phasing as possible to save time come mixdown. Then, I tape the 451 to the beta57a in such a way that when I focus it at the snare, the beta 57a is physically shielding the sd condensor as best as possible from the hi hats. This combination usually gives me just enough rejection from the hi hats to make it quite usable during mixdown.
 
a guy i assisted used to do the 414 bottom 57 top thing.

i LOVE the 414 on snare. wish i never would have sold mine...but it was $$$$ for a snare mic...

Mike
 
good reading :)

i've only tried micing the underneath of the snare once, last time i tracked drums. i used a sm58, and i'm a convert :)

my only problem is, i've only got 6 inputs on my sound card, so it feels a bit of a waste, almost, to go sticking mics under the snare and stuff, without micing up other areas like the toms first - so as soon as i can add some more inputs, a mic will be regularly under there!!

i absolutely love the sound. on the next set of recordings i do for my band, i might even use Just the underneath snare on some songs, to give a slightly different sound.

Andy.
 
i've tried using sm57's and sm81's under the snare before, and i just didn't much like the results...but for whatever reason, the 4033 blends perfectly with the top mic. i also had it placed farther away than usual; it was probably 12" below the snare head, placed with the kick in its null point, slightly off-axis

and yea, the 4033 isn't really an LDC, but whatever
 
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