Kick Drum mic and PA issues

  • Thread starter Thread starter tsswitch
  • Start date Start date
T

tsswitch

New member
Hey, my band is playing our first show on monday. We're having some problems mic-ing the kick drum. We've got a D112, and some Peavey tls 2 PA speakers similar to this:
http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--PEVTLS2X

We've been using them for vocals but have never tried running the drums through them. But today when we gave it a shot, all we could get out of it was awful crackling and exploding noises and plenty of feedback.
Should these speakers not be able to handle the kick drum?

If not, then what is required for mic-ing drums in a live setting?
Thanks.
 
First off I would never, ever run a kick mic into speakers that are 12's. You will blow out your speakers really quickly......notice this,

Frequency Response: 51 Hz-21 kHz that means those speakers will not reproduce the frequencies low enough for the bass drum or even the low E string on the bass guitar.

If you don't have subs or really good front's with heavy duty 15" speakers don't mic the kick.

Obviously there is something wrong, can you get a voice through it? It should be able to pick up a voice. If not either the mic, cable or channel you are using is bad. If it works, you are obviously overloading the mic pre and/or system. There is just too much energy in the lowend for it to handle especially without compression and a limiter. Get a DBX 166 XL, that gates, compresses and limits and will save your speakers and give you more gain before feedback if set up correctly along with an EQ.

Now if you must mic the kick and I have no idea why if you are using such small speakers as a front system........buy a powered sub and use the other side of your stereo board. Please don't tell me your running your fronts in stereo.

If you do not have 2 outputs from your board then what kind of board is it?

The easiest way to run a sub is to use one side for the fronts and one side for the sub, pan everything you want strictly in the sub to that side and maybe a little of the vocals to beef up some of the male singer's lows. If you have a stereo EQ use one side for each and bury all the highs for the sub except frequencies lower than 100 hz. Use it more as a passive EQ, do not boost the frequencies. If you do they will feedback.

That is the cheapest way to do it without having to add a crossover and more power amps. Keep it simple, but it's not the best way though.

Board-EQ-compressor-x over-one side to power/tops one side to power/subs.....that is the easiest and correct way to have a small semi efficient system that will allow you to mic the drums and even DI the bass guitar. But the more you put through the system the less efficient and loud the vocals will be.

What equipment do you have? If you need help contact me directly and I will help you sort everything out.
 
Some of that is good advice, but not being able to run a kick drum through a 12" speaker is just not true. You won't be able to rock the lows like you would when you have subs, but you can certainly get some attack and presence out of the kick drum which will still help. As an example, it is very common to run the kick drum through floor wedges that only use a 12" speaker and a 1.4" compression driver. In fact, a pretty full sound can still be had with a setup like that. Not really adequate for FOH chores, but still usable. If you do not have subs, I would at least try and roll of some lows on kick, bass, guitars, and vocals. Containing these low frequencies will reduce a lot of stress from both your amplifier and your speakers. The end result will be a cleaner sound with more output.
 
Running a kick with a D112 through a 12 inch speaker without any compression, limiter or EQ is not a good idea. Especially when they are PV's. Plus it only goes down to 51 hz.......I can see using a 57 for proximity to pickup something from the kit and cutting the highs on the board to eliminate some of the cymbals and snare, but that's it.

Unless you are talking about really high end stuff with the proper protection.

Or you want to spring for a new set of speakers for the guy.

Be conservative when recommending things that could possibly harm a person's equipment, that is a good rule.

Did you ever run a D112 on a bass drum through a PV 12" box?
 
Do those cabinets have any kind of internal crossover?

Also, try changing out mic cables. The sounds you described sound like a bad cable or too much signal. What are your gain settings on your mixer set on? Turn the volume ( the mic and line levels) all the way down on the kick channel and slowly bring it up after changing cables.
 
I did not reccomend something that would harm their equipment, and I have had the displeasure of running kick through Peavey 12" speakers and even lesser speakers on occasion. What I did was explain how to make it work so their equipment would NOT get damaged rather than pretending it is impossible. Not only that, but a speaker that goes to 51 hz is actually plenty low to run a decent kick drum. Most PA subs even don't do anything below 35. Not only that, but what they do down there is not very usable anyhow. As for compressing the kick, there is a good chance that compression will increase the danger to their speakers. Once you compress them it will lower the output and add sustain to the lows. Now that the signal is lower, people in this situation would tend to counter that with more output. In the end there is a good chance that the makeup gain applied to acheive a usable volume will push the poor low frequency drivers harder as well as the amps because now instead of having a faster transient and a quicker release, you will be holding that driver at its push phase which is not a happy thing, especially for a driver that does not have much extension. EQ (subtractive at least in the lows) is however a good idea for keeping a 12" speaker a little safer. If that is not readily available, then you could also just move the mic farther away from the ported head, or even put it on the batter side. Switching to something like a 57 might not hurt either to help reduce the lows at the preamp and increase the mids and highs.
 
Thanks for the input guys.
I'm considering my options...
Maybe I can get a sub at a pawn shop or somewhere for a reasonable price.
I certainly can't get any usable sound out of the Peaveys (I have tried changing the cables and the lot), so it seems like the only option really.
 
Big Daddy said:
Running a kick with a D112 through a 12 inch speaker without any compression, limiter or EQ is not a good idea. Especially when they are PV's. Plus it only goes down to 51 hz.......I can see using a 57 for proximity to pickup something from the kit and cutting the highs on the board to eliminate some of the cymbals and snare, but that's it.

Unless you are talking about really high end stuff with the proper protection.

Or you want to spring for a new set of speakers for the guy.

Be conservative when recommending things that could possibly harm a person's equipment, that is a good rule.

Did you ever run a D112 on a bass drum through a PV 12" box?
Click to expand...

It's not that big of a deal. Any instrument can be run through a PA. Obviously he won't get much thump but he can get some smack.
 
tsswitch....I had a pair of Peavey "tls" model speakers and blew speakers three times just at local gigs, they are not BW or LR quality, of course you know that. If I remember Peavey gives them a 400watt rating, just not true. As mentioned a good bass response should come through a 15 or 18" sub, but lets face it there are 10" subs nowadays (ampeg 10's ie) that'll rock the house, so in this case it is the speakers. Don't try to use them (tls 12's) as subs, they aren't. You can get a comp, limit etc or sometimes an "exciter/spacial enhancer" does wonders for small systems and bringing out bass. I wouldn't count on the PV TLS 12's to take too much bass wattage. jmo
 
The problem is, as far as I can tell, you can't get a sub that can handle a kick drum for less than like $500... Which is a lot just to mic a kick drum on the off chance that there is no PA where you're playing.
 
There seems to be a lot of miss-information on this web site.

I make small errors because I have been out of the sound business for almost a decade. A lot has changed in terms of what's out there like everybody using Eminence speakers and calling their stuff semi high-end....LMAO.

But the basics to live sound reproduction or reinforcement have been established many years ago and I had to learn them. Some times the hard way.

You should never ever put low frequency sound sources through mid-high speakers unless you have subs or they are huge dual 15 JBL's or something that can go down to below 45hz or so without doing damage and even then just as a little taste to give the band a more even mix in the room.

Bass drums, floor toms, bass guitar and the left side of any keyboard does not belong in the mid-high portion of a main system and in monitors unless they are designed for them. In a monitor system they put those instruments through the side fills. Unless like I said they are designed for those low frequencies.

Those sound sources as with all, have higher order harmonics and octaves so some of the sound is in the low to high mids even some in the high hz. But the majority of energy is below 100hz. Some up to 250hz or there abouts, some even higher depending on the source, how it's tuned and what you want. Do you want the squeak of the foot pedal? Although the new one's with chains are much quieter, there still is residual noise from a kick setup.

I could explain thing in much more detail from what I remembered but that alone would fill a book. The things I forget 2 books and the things I don't know whole encyclopedias. I don't pretend to know everything and I could be wrong about certain things but there are things I know that I know and this is one of them.

If you don't know what your talking about please STFU. You can cost somebody money and really ruin an important gig.
 
Big Daddy, where as what you say touches on being correct, most of it is wrong. I run a live sound company for a living, have mixed live for probably more than 1000 bands (around 4 to 20 a week for 10 years now), and have run countless different systems.

First off, the "45hz" number you are throwing out doesn't mean crap. If the speakers only go down to 100 hz, instruments with LF content can still be put in there, just with care.

Second, kick, bass, low keys etc... definately have to end up in the mid-high section of a main system or all they will do is sound like a mushy ball of shit. They go in monitors very frequently as well. In those instruments, the majority of what people want hear is not in the below 100 range either. Take a 4 way rig for example. Cross the subs over at 100 and do the rest based on system spec. Listen carefully and mute each band on the crossover one at a time. The two ends that will most likely be the most comfortable to live without are the subs and the highs. the low mids and high mids (100hz to 6k or so) are what you will need the most of.

Third, maybe you haven't done sound since the 60's, but things have changed alot since then. 12" speakers must be capable of MUCH more now then what they were then based on your descriptions.

Also, the "squeak" of a foot pedal? Sure, in a bad setup that is possible. However, generally, that is not a problem, unless you throw some sort of condensor over there I guess. There are many people out there, especially with certain types of music, that actually PREFER to mic a kick drum this way.

The sidefill thing is a laugh as well. Most bands that use sidefills definately like to rock them hard. They like alot of kick snare and bass there, but don't for a second think that means they don't also have plenty in their floor wedges. IN fact, I would say that probably 95% of all the rock acts I deal with like kick and bass in their floor wedges. If they have a key player, not a single one has asked me to keep "the left half" of the keyboard out of the wedges. I have even put 808 drum hits through our 12" JBL wedges with no problems.

I agree that there is a fair share of misinformation running around here. Sadly though, in this case, you are the one spreading it.
 
Uh well, I won't get into it - I'll just say that the monitors my band is stuck with (two 12 with a horn "Sonic" monitors + one 12 with a horn midpriced Yamaha) gets a decent amount of thump - I have to mic the kick, as the stages we play on are often the size of an average couch I custom made a 'piccolo kick' 20x5 so it needs help to be heard at all...

With a proper system in the house people are often suprised this is about the same depth as an average snare is. I have never gotten the impression that any of the monitors were going to blow, even when you add in the vocals, the doumbek, and the two synths that make up the rest of the band...

I think if you want to get more than a little help out of those 12's tho it may be time to get a sub... And if you want one for less than $500 check out the Yorkville, as they are fairly small, on the inexpensive side and will put out quite a bit of bass.
 
Please re-read what I said.

Because you are taking things out of context.

I said if they are designed for them. I also said there will be some sound in the mid and high speakers. Or did I not say that?

High end gear can handle things lowend stuff cannot......

Maybe since you are a professional you are used to high end gear and forgot how crappy cheap stuff is.

[Second, kick, bass, low keys etc... definitely have to end up in the mid-high section of a main system or all they will do is sound like a mushy ball of shit. They go in monitors very frequently as well.]

Yeah sure a $1500 wedge can reproduce things better than a $300 musicians friend special. Didn't I say they will also be in the other speakers as well but the energy is in the subs......

[First off, the "45hz" number you are throwing out doesn't mean crap. If the speakers only go down to 100 hz, instruments with LF content can still be put in there, just with care.]

45hz is an arbitrary number to give a base freq because it's close to the low E on a bass guitar. It's a number that can be related to if someone has an idea of how it sounds/feels and it's close to a lot of specs when your talking about how low some cabs can go. Not even getting to the whole SPL and Db thing. What is "care" if the the system probably doesn't even have a descent EQ? Please define care?

[I have even put 808 drum hits through our 12" JBL wedges with no problems.]

You probably mean higher end wedges and you had 4 of them which will increase the DB of the lowend hz by a great deal. Like the difference between having an amp with 1-12" or a 4-12 Marshall type cab. How many of these lower end systems even have 4 wedges total, usually 2 is the most.

Most small systems are bad setups.

Like so many here you read what you want to and everybody here seems to enjoy pulling out there dicks to show how big they think it is instead of really trying to help people.

I am beginning to really dislike this place and the people here. They really are full of shit.

People here just seem to like to shoot people down because they think they can. Sorry xstatic you are an asshole with the same type of overblown ego as with Ford Van. It's usual for young men to want to pull their dicks out and say mine's bigger. Maybe in 17 more years of life you'll learn humility from life experience and that at 33 years old you only think you are important.

You're right and I am totally wrong I have no idea what I am talking about listen to this guy and run everything through your crappy PA's people. Then call this guy for the money to have your speakers reconed, diaphragms replaced and blown Xovers replaced. Oh and don't forget the money the club owner didn't pay you because your PA crapped out.
 
Well, there it is again Big Daddy. You have become the prime example of that which you are touting as the negative factor. You should re-read this thread because YOU are the one who has taken things out of context. The first few posts of mine were in no way designed to "shoot people down" as you say. In fact, my response was clear and informative in correcting your mistakes. In addition to that it was correct. You however chose to retaliate out of anger and throwing out accusations.

45hz as the fundamental for low E? so how is it that the bass cabs with 10" speakers reproduce them then? And since when is that your primary frequency on bass? Once again, full of shit.

Then you argue about whether or not certain sounds get placed in monitors, how many monitors etc... However, the argument you are using to try and contradict my statement has nothing to do with it.

You ask me to define "care". Try reading my posts instead of guessing at them. I clearly described HOW to utilize the kick drum in the mains of a small cheap system. Yes I use nice wedges frequently, but then I also have to use the little crappy things on occasion to. Much more often than I would like to (being in three bands as well). I can get kick drum in my 10" powered Mackies without blowing them up. This is also done with no graphic EQ, no compressors or limiters etc.... Just some standard cheap Mackie channel strip EQ.

You don't think that after 1000+ bands I understand how sidefills or how multiple wedges changes things? Wow, incredible. What your statements tell me is that you actually do not have experience with this kind of thing. You are probably some old idiot who wasn't careful and blew some drivers once. Don't let your bad experience and misuse affect how every one else should run things though. Just to satisfy your overblown ego though, yes, I can get 808 hits (far lower than bass guitar notes, yet still not as low as 45hz as a fundamental) in a SINGLE 12" wedge. I have done it plenty of times. I have done them in my powered 10's. All it takes is a slight bit of intelligence and logical thinking and you can do it to.

There seems to only be about one thing left that you have said that I agree with. You said that "most small systems are bad setups". That I actually agree with. That does not however mean that you can't still use them to the best of their abilities.
 
tsswitch said:
The problem is, as far as I can tell, you can't get a sub that can handle a kick drum for less than like $500... Which is a lot just to mic a kick drum on the off chance that there is no PA where you're playing.
Click to expand...


Good point tsswitch, I just left a band that I played with for awhile, they had subs that were left in the trailer more than set-up in clubs, although around my neck of the woods most are a step up from juke joints haha

There is more inexpensive gear that can be had for purposes like this, like said Berry (bad rap king), Nady etc that have active 15" sub cheap and may serve a purpose like this in a smaller system. jmo
 
looks like someone took his ball with him when he left... oh well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top