Kick drum compression settings (W/DKFH)

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Tiger_

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hope this is the right forum...

Hello all, Im relatively new here, but I hope I can get some help.

Ive been searching for a great kick drum sound for a little over a year now (Here is proof) , and Ive learned a lot about EQing my DKFH Superior samples to get close...but everything results in untameable peaks in my mixes. I want to get all the click (I.E. Meshuggah, Fear Factory) I can stand plus punch and power, but it makes my mixes unbalanced.

I use Cool Edit Pro, so I can pretty much type in any numbers you guys care to throw at me. Ive experimented, but Ive had absolutely no luck in getting anything usable. If you dont mind, can you guys possibly give me ball park figures and maybe give me a method for going about this?

If you're curious, my current kick drum sounds like this...



I appreciate any help. Thanks.
 
'but everything results in untameable peaks in my mixes.'

use a limiter...i like fast-ish attack fast-ish release for this type of stuff...

i'm not familiar with the program, but 'plug in' a comp, start with it set to greater than 10:1 and set the threshold to where just the untamable peaks are taken down to where they aren't peaking. instead of constant db reduction, you'll see quick jabs of reduction at the peaks on whatever metering system you have...think Ali in '65 not '75. adjust it all to taste.

setting up some light compression ahead of the limiter can help it sit better as well...or it can not...but you may as well try as it can be useful in thickening up a kick's body sometimes.

in hardwareland, a dbx 161 @ or over 6:1 (yes, not limiting...but that thing is a killer) knocking off the peaks works wonders at our place...as does almost any grabby VCA comp - cheap or otherwise. if it's too cheap - mult the kick (or in your case copy the track) and do the limit on one channel/track and mix in the unaffected channel just enough to bring back what the cheapy comp is taking away... i do the mult thing even with the 161...i think it sounds more natural...

hope this helps...i can't download the tracks here at the pod so i'm flying deef. what else is new? :eek:

peace,
Mike
 
Maybe you need to think less about doing stuff to the kick drum and more about WHAT IS OBSCURING THE KICK DRUM in your mix. If something refuses to punch through there's usually a reason.
 
Thanks everyone, Ive got a few ideas to try from reading this thread and the link that was posted.

Bigtoe, this may sound stupid but does the limiter take off the high end first or is it evenly dispersed across the spectrum?

Cloneboy, the kick is definitely there and I can get it to sound in the ballpark without anything stepping on it. Ive notched some of the freq's Ive boosted on the kick in the mix to make sure of it. But then Im left with just an unbalanced sounding/looking mix.
 
Tiger_ said:
...does the limiter take off the high end first or is it evenly dispersed across the spectrum?
Click to expand...

A limiter just affects the volume of the clip. Basically cutting down the peaks.
 
Tiger_ said:
Bigtoe, this may sound stupid but does the limiter take off the high end first or is it evenly dispersed across the spectrum?
Click to expand...

it effects the entire spectrum.
but........

you can change how something sounds with a compressor (or limiter) by setting the attack and release time in different ways.

take the kick.
a super fast attack (instant) and a faster release (with the proper threshold) will make it sound bigger because you're compressing the transient (the initial attack) more than the body (the "after tones" of the drum, if that helps)

so you've effected the relative volumes of different parts of the kick TIME WISE. the first thing, which is usually the loudest part, is now quieter, and the last part is louder(in comparison to the first)
get it?

so if you set a longer attack time like say 40ms and a slower release time like 120ms the transient (or attack) gets past the compressor unaffected, but the body (and the tail) are compressed. so now the attack (or click in this case) is louder. (because the attacks volume, relative to the body has increased so when you turn the drum up, now you hear more click and less woof).

I hope that's clear. :confused:
 
I have been getting great kick sound lately by using an AKG D112 inside the kick about 6 in. from the beater and a 1x12 guitar cab as a mic out in front of the kick a couple feet. The 112 picks up the smack of the beater nicely and the cab gives it a nice low-end woof. It's helping the low end content on the floor toms as well, the drum tracks are really turning out nice lately.
 
big ups to giraffe...i think that's great answer.

someone recently asked me for a 'chart' on what fast/slow attack and releases are time-wise...i had to admit i never look...the only ones labeled that i have are the rnc's...

Mike
 
I now have an 'idea' of what to do, but can anyone give me any fail safe settings to plug into the compressor that I can build off of? There are a lot of options and variables and Im kind of still a bit lost.

I feel like I know enough to tweak it to my tastes, but not enough to just take off running on my own.
 
Tiger_ said:
I now have an 'idea' of what to do, but can anyone give me any fail safe settings to plug into the compressor that I can build off of? There are a lot of options and variables and Im kind of still a bit lost.

I feel like I know enough to tweak it to my tastes, but not enough to just take off running on my own.
Click to expand...
Every compressor control has three presets built in: all the way down, all the way up and half-way. You're better off starting your tweaks from those settings than some fairly arbitrary recipe. That's the only way you'll learn how and why the thing works and what the settings actually mean to the sound.

Actually the main ones you'll probably want to expiriment with the most here - based upon your description of your desires - will be the attack and release times. The gain reduction and (especially) the threshold depend entirely upon the nature of your tracks themself.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Actually the main ones you'll probably want to expiriment with the most here - based upon your description of your desires - will be the attack and release times. The gain reduction and (especially) the threshold depend entirely upon the nature of your tracks themself.

G.
Click to expand...


There is the blindspot.

I dont know whats that there, for my personal tracks.

I mean...I could upload a kick drum solo'ed, to give you an idea. I honestly dont know where to start.



Thats a 123kb clip of my kick drum.





And Im totally for experimentation, Ive done quite a bit of it, but with compression Ive gotten no 'positive' results after quite some time. Getting a good starting point is imperative, at this point.
 
Tiger_ said:
Getting a good starting point is imperative, at this point.
Click to expand...
Well, there are probably several different ways to attack (no pun) the problem, varying from engineer to engineer. Let me suggest the way I'd probably jump into it. Others may have their own methods...

First, before going into the compressor, you might - and this is optional - want to use a little EQ to get rid of "unwanted" sounds from the drums that might otherwise be unpleasantly enhanced by the upcoming compression. For example, if the kick sounds a little muddy, you might want to cut a couple of dBs somewhere around the 300-500Hz range so that the compression doesn't muddy that even more. Just an example. EQ any "problem" areas as needed by your actual clip(s) before you compress. This EQ at this point should be to remove problems only, not to try and enhance the wanted sounds.

Then I'd look at the waveforms and metering on the drum tracks and figure out just how much of a dynamic range I have in the drums and where in the volume range it exists. (Actually, I'd use my ears as much as I used the visuals, but that's because my ears are a bit more "trained" as to what different levels sound like. But for now lets use the vsual aids to help in the training. :) ) The idea is to figure out the threshold and the amount of compression (gain reduction) to apply. This will give you the basic actual amount of compression to apply (for starters, anyway.)

As a very raw starting point, try setting the threshold just barely above the RMS - or average - level of the clip. This means the average level will not be compressed at all, that you will be just targeting the peaks. Then set the gain reduction (a.k.a. compression ratio) to drag the peaks down to within a dB or two max of the RMS/threshold level. This will give you a very compressed clip with a dynamic range of only a couple of dBs or so. This will hopefully give you the "power" you're looking for. (You can tweak these settings up or down later as desired.)

At this point you may not have "the sound" yet, but you'll have a solid and powerful clip of prominantly compressed drums. to work with.

Next, I'd move to the attack and release settings. Here is where you can fine tune some of the "click and punch" you're looking for. Faster attack (slower attack on the compressor) may possibly give you more of the high frequency click your looking for, and the punch may be modified by tweaking the release (and the attack) settings to taste. It may take a little expirementation to find just hwere the upper and lower parameters are where unwanted "pumping" or "breathing" come in. When you find those limits, your sweet spot should be somewhere in-between.

Fourth, you may have to go back and forth a couple of times between the first and second steps; when you change the attack, you may have to re-adjust the gain reduction up or down a bit, etc. But the tweaking shouldn't be too bad.

Fifth, once you have that all dialed in, then it's a matter of setting your output gain to push the final compressed product up to the output levels you're looking for.

Finally, after the compression is done, you can optionally put a little more EQ next in the chain to "sweeten" or "fatten" the resulting sound to taste. Here, after the compression, is hwere you want ti use the EQ for "enhancement", if needed.

HTH,

G.
 
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why would you want just click?

isn't another name for the kick 'bass drum'??

i mean, i've worked with pleny of metal bands before, and i always make an effort to and some bass in the kick . . it's just not a kick without bass!
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Well, there are probably several different ways to attack (no pun) the problem, varying from engineer to engineer. Let me suggest the way I'd probably jump into it. Others may have their own methods...
Click to expand...



South, thank you sooooo much! That post was extremely useful, that definitely has me started, it clicked. Thanks to everyone else to, Ill make an amalgram of all of this info.
 
What southside and giraffe said is great advice.
If you have the channels available to do this, I would recommend it:
Split your kik drum to two channels. treat one of them as the umph channel, and one of them as the attack channel.

You can eq one real low endy to your taste (60-240 hz boost for metal stuff roughly shelf above 1K), and the other for the click (1.5k to 8k or to taste, cutting most of the crap out below about 400hz).

For the compressor on the low end channel, I try a fast attack (less than 1ms) and a fast release ( say 1 to 100 ms) 3:1 to 6:1 ratio. For the click channel a medium attack (2ms-10ms) and a slower release (more than 40ms or so---could be even slower though).

You could also gate the attack channel. It will help to give you more attack seeing as how most gates have that nasty high end click when they're opening.
Now mix the two together. It'll help you control the balance of the kick--you can make the kick seem louder with more of the attack track, and subwoof the hell out of it with the umph channel.

These are just rough guidlines. You'll have to turn the knobs and fiddle with eq and compressor settings yourself to figure out what will work for you.

Rock on you crazy bastid.
 
I like the kick

I like the kick - - - I'd say if you are having peak problems compress. Just make sure you don't compress so much you square off the tops of the waveforms and make a distorted square wave.

I think the snare sounds a little thin tho...
 
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