Keyboard Recording Question

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Eaglerulez

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Hi everybody!

This is my first time posting on this forum and I am writing mainly because I have a perplexing problem when recording on my keyboard.

When I record my keyboard I get a ton of distortion when I play a lot of low bassy notes, a lot of higher notes, or when I play a lot of chords or notes at the same time.

Now when I record, my levels are nowhere near clipping and are generally pretty healthy. I have tried a ton of different volume combinations. Such as having my keyboard output at 3/4's with my audio interface/recorder gaining at 1/4. I have tried it the other way around with the recorder and interface at 3/4's and the keyboard at 1/4. I have even tried having the keyboard at 1/4 and the audio interface/recorder at 1/4 then pumping everything up in post.

I have tried recording into a Focusrite Scarlet 2i2i and have also tried a Marantz PMD 661 external audio recorder as well as a M-Audio Fast track pro. All have suffered from this distortion. I have tried my keyboard's aux outs and headphone outs and have used 1/4" cables and 1/4" to XLR adapters neither one of which showed any significant improvement in audio quality.

I have tried listening to my recording on Sony 7506's, crappy Skullcandy headphones, and a variety of computer speakers and all have suffered from distortion when lots of notes are played, higher or lower notes are played, etc.

What basically happens is my recordings will sound perfect at lower volumes but will totally distort when I turn up the volume, but I have listened to my keyboard at full volume through my headphones when just playing regularly and I have had no problem with it distorting. So in other words it's not like my headphones/speakers are incapable of handling what I am throwing at them something during the recording process is causing this distortion and I have no idea what it is.

Does anyone have any ideas?
 
Eaglerulez said:
... What basically happens is my recordings will sound perfect at lower volumes but will totally distort when I turn up the volume, but I have listened to my keyboard at full volume through my headphones when just playing regularly and I have had no problem with it distorting. So in other words it's not like my headphones/speakers are incapable of handling what I am throwing at them something during the recording process is causing this distortion and I have no idea what it is.

Does anyone have any ideas?
Click to expand...
Welcome to the board.
Not sure what's going on, but after all the previous examples, does this mean you can get a clean recording-- but the problem is in the playback?

Presuming that, can you play other things cleanly at normal volumes?
 
Make and model of keyboard PUHLEEESE!

You say you have plenty of clean volume from the headphones output? Try feeding that to the interface. The output amps in the keys could be faulty.

Dave.
 
Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the reply.

I have tried two different keyboards. One is a Korg SP-250 and the other is a Yamaha P-155. I have used the AUX out on both of them and I think I tried using the headphone outs on one of them without any better quality. But I will give it another shot today.

As far as getting a "clean recording" without being too difficult I am honestly not sure what your particular definition of that is so I am not sure if I am answering that properly. Basically my levels are nowhere near clipping but if I listen to my recording at around 75% volume the notes start to distort. So if I listen to my recording at around 50% volume it sounds fine but as I increase the volume on my headphones, speakers, etc everything falls apart. What confuses me is that I can listen to my playing via headphones on the piano and have clarity from 0-100% volume. I even tried monitoring the keyboard after plugging it into a mackie mixer and the notes sounded perfect at 0-100% when listening through the Mackie, but once I went into the recorders it distorted.
 
Eaglerulez said:
As far as getting a "clean recording" without being too difficult I am honestly not sure what your particular definition of that is so I am not sure if I am answering that properly. Basically my levels are nowhere near clipping but if I listen to my recording at around 75% volume the notes start to distort. So if I listen to my recording at around 50% volume it sounds fine but as ..
Click to expand...
Ok if they're 'clean at 50% volume (whatever that means) then they recorded clean. Them the question remains can you play other recorded things cleanly at normal volumes? It's starting to sound like your playback path is out of whack.
Are you Shure when you say if falls apart 'at 75%' none of the meters in the recording app are in the red?
 
"The closest it gets to clipping is around -3db."

Not so! Both on my 2496 soundcard meters and a recording in Samplitude that vid hits over 0dBFS.

Whatever is going on in your replay chain you don't have to record nearly so hot. Even if you are running at 16bits your absolute peak can be -6 even -8dBFS and if 24 bits -10 with an average of -18 to -20dBFS.

Dave.
 
mixsit said:
Ok if they're 'clean at 50% volume (whatever that means) then they recorded clean. Them the question remains can you play other recorded things cleanly at normal volumes? It's starting to sound like your playback path is out of whack.
Are you Shure when you say if falls apart 'at 75%' none of the meters in the recording app are in the red?
Click to expand...

What I mean by 50% volume is simply turning up the volume on my speakers. I am not adjusting the gain or anything in my recording program. In other words none of my recordings have red in them when I am listening to them in my recording program, but I can hear the distortion as I increase the volume on my speakers.

To answer your question about other recorded material. I have only recorded vocals.

When I record vocals that average around -6db I can turn up the volume on my speakers all the way without hearing distortion.
When I record piano that averages around -6db I can't turn up the volume on my speakers without hearing distortion.

Hence why I am getting confused as to why my piano is distorting at what should be (to my knowledge which is admittedly limited) healthy and safe recording levels.

Thank you again for your response I really appreciate it!
 
ecc83 said:
"The closest it gets to clipping is around -3db."

Not so! Both on my 2496 soundcard meters and a recording in Samplitude that vid hits over 0dBFS.

Whatever is going on in your replay chain you don't have to record nearly so hot. Even if you are running at 16bits your absolute peak can be -6 even -8dBFS and if 24 bits -10 with an average of -18 to -20dBFS.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Hmm, what an interesting development.

When I was creating the video in Adobe Premiere the highest the meters got was around -3db. Of course Logic (which is my recording program) shows basically the same thing. Not to say that I doubt your findings, I am just confused as to how/why there is a discrepancy.

Out of curiosity why should my absolute peak be at -10 with averages at -20db when recording 24bit? I know 24bit generally gives you more latitude but I thought the goal was to keep everything as close to 0 while giving plenty of headroom to not go over.

Thanks again for the responses though, I really appreciate it!
 
Eaglerulez said:
I thought the goal was to keep everything as close to 0 while giving plenty of headroom to not go over.
Click to expand...

This goal is a legacy of an era when noise of the recording system was a much greater impediment to quality (e.g. tape noise). The idea was to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio.

With digital recording, system noise is far less of a concern, to the extent that it doesn't really matter what level you record at.

Because digital noise is extremely unpleasant, stay well away from the danger area. Concentrate more on getting a good quality recorded signal, even if it is pretty quiet.
 
gecko zzed said:
.. Because digital noise is extremely unpleasant, stay well away from the danger area. Concentrate more on getting a good quality recorded signal, even if it is pretty quiet.
Click to expand...
Yes this!
And to add..
ecc83 said:
"The closest it gets to clipping is around -3db."

Not so! Both on my 2496 soundcard meters and a recording in Samplitude that vid hits over 0dBFS.

Whatever is going on in your replay chain you don't have to record nearly so hot. Even if you are running at 16bits your absolute peak can be -6 even -8dBFS and if 24 bits -10 with an average of -18 to -20dBFS.

Dave.
Click to expand...
Ok I just played the thing, E-MU1820 internet rig all 'PatchMix'er faders zero'ed' out, analog into the Central Station to my mains.
It plays and sounds exactly the same at 75dB spl as at '105- Clean and open' at the intro and a little congested' on the louder parts.
It hit 0dB once towards the end on the Presonus, never in the e-mu 'Pathmix'. (How could it go over BTW? Very small differences in metering maybe? Anyway..

Unless (OP) you talking worse 'distortion than what I mentioned? And you said two diff keys, (-this all analog in right?) O-key ;)

- To test the record chain try key's outputs down, and then knock your record level (analog in on the interface) down ito where it's supposed to be :) -24 on a chord, peaks - 6 - -10!
This should eliminate any possible record chain nasties' if it's due to stressed' analog going in.
- And to cross check everything -including the keyboard- and your playback chain- import a nice clean piano track- (cd or something.
 
Miixsit, attached is what I mean by "over 0" .
Samplitude shows the signal red for an overload.

It might well be however that turning a .wav into a video "normalizes" it and as you say, slight differences in metering might interpret AT 0dBFS as an over.

I replayed the recording at a maximum peak SPL of 89dBC, about as loud as I want to go this time of night! I do not have very good hearing anymore but at those levels I could detect no actual distortion. It has to be said tho' that dense piano chords at realistic levels are a challenge for a speaker system and maybe the OP's system is not up to it?

Dave.
 

Attachments

I have posted that attachement using my HPi3 W7/64 laptop because I cannot get the attachement system to run on my usual "office" P4.
Can anyone tell me why? It is running XP Home and IE8.
Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Miixsit, attached is what I mean by "over 0" .
Samplitude shows the signal red for an overload.

It might well be however that turning a .wav into a video "normalizes" it and as you say, slight differences in metering might interpret AT 0dBFS as an over. ..
Click to expand...
I'd presume so.
I think too being analog in to the passive side of my Presonus that meter wasn't relevant either -
I was looking at it as the top 0dBFS' scale. On it's bottom scale that would be +17dBu' or what ever. Oops. :D
Hey if you still have it on your drive- see if it still trips at say -1 on your fader.
 
Hey guys thanks so much for all of the help and insightful posts.

It's good to know that with the newer digital stuff we can keep our recordings further away from 0 and still have them sound decent.

Here is a recording that I did with most of the levels at around -24 and peaks going no higher than -6 as mixisit recommend.

Recording Test 2 - YouTube

What I noticed is that past -15 on my system I start to hear distortion at higher volume levels through my speakers and headphones. Meaning in essence that when I turn my speakers up I can start to hear distortion at say 75%-100% volume.

When I use some compression and keep everything around -20db it sounds fine across volume ranges but at 50% volume on my speakers/headphones I find that the piano sounds a little weak and I really have to pump the speakers/headphones to near 100% to start hearing decently.

I think what I'm trying to figure out is how to get this to sound good at 50% volume while being able to push my speakers and headphones to 100% without hearing distortion, or congestion, or anything like that.
 
Hope I'm right here.. The second example sounds compressed(..? ) and worse for it.
Right or wrong about that, that would be the wrong reason to go to compression. IMHO if this is going to boil down to simple limitations in the playback system's volume capabilities, that should be sorted out and kept separate form how you want your mix or instruments to sound.
 
mixsit said:
Hope I'm right here.. The second example sounds compressed(..? ) and worse for it.
Right or wrong about that, that would be the wrong reason to go to compression. IMHO if this is going to boil down to simple limitations in the playback system's volume capabilities, that should be sorted out and kept separate form how you want your mix or instruments to sound.
Click to expand...

Yea. I would try a CD ( not MP3/4 rubbish!) of some heavy piano music such as the second movement of Beet' Moonlight which has just finished on Radio 3!

Dave.
 
It appears to be a playback system problem, nothing to do with the actual recording or recording levels, although why this would happen with both a Focusrite and an stand-alone recorder, I don't know.
 
Hey guys thank you so much once again for all of the help. You are right the recording that I just posted was compressed sorry about that.

Here is one that has no compression on it and has a peak at -10db (I don't even think it got that hi to be honest) the majority of it averages at around -24db (at least according to my metering)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OaKFxyPTPU&feature=youtu.be

I am listening to various piano tracks right now and will report back on that end.
 
Just a suggestion...

When posting samples to illustrate a level-related problem, it would be very useful to include 20 or 30 seconds of calibration tone at the beginning of the clip (probably just 1000 Hz at -18dBFS by your metering) and include a note about what level the cal tone is. Then, when you play your keyboards at your "normal" level, it becomes very easy to see exactly what your recorded levels are.

With all the variations going through Premiere and Youtube, it's not really possible to judge what the actual absolute level of your recording is--but with a calibration tone everyone can use to set up recording then playback, this becomes a piece of cake.

(FYI, this is exactly the reason for the tone at the beginning of radio recordings or over the colour bars on video. The person receiving the recording can set the playback so the tone is at -18dB (or whatever is agreed) then know the programme material will be playbed back at exactly the same level as the original producer put in.)
 
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