iZoTope Ozone 3 Released

  • Thread starter Thread starter Qwerty
  • Start date Start date
well i'ma post my unscientific test...cuz honestly i've never done a direct A/B i just never felt like wow this track sounds better then this one cuz of dither...

it depends...if its the REAL mix i use samplitude if something is going to mastering i just take off the timeworks mastering compressor and UAD cambridge off the bus and don't reduce to 16 of course...

if its the real mix and DIY master..i just put the cambridge on the mastering bus choose one of the presets usually high end sparkle...adjust a bit to taste...slap on the timeworks mastering compressor play with the threshold(never more then -4 db to -5 db) and limit the output by a few tenths...i get most of my 'sound' in the mix with the individual elements...
 
very interesting points...i still don't think dither across the entire 2bus will make or break a track...but i may prove myself wrong in a week...i'm real stoked to try the cranesong stuff

as for the dither shoot out i'm at work so i gotta weight till i get home to check it...seems like megabit is the best or at least what users prefer the most
 
Teacher said:
very interesting points...i still don't think dither across the entire 2bus will make or break a track...but i may prove myself wrong in a week...i'm real stoked to try the cranesong stuff

as for the dither shoot out i'm at work so i gotta weight till i get home to check it...seems like megabit is the best or at least what users prefer the most
Click to expand...
Yes, and interestingly enough, Ozone uses a proprietary dithering algorithm called "Mbit+". I wonder if it's the same as or a tweaked version of Megabitmax. I checked the Megabitmax web site and the only software listed there using the Megabitmax dithering algorithm is "Spark XL" for Mac.

BTW... their dithering listening comparisons are impressive: :D

http://www.megabitmax.com/

Hey! We're actually back on topic!
 
I think I need to learn more about dither. For example, in an app like sonar, if you stick the IDR on a track(or bus) so what? When you go to export the project, it's still going to ask you what to save the project as(16bit, 24bit), right? So what good is it doing?
 
mbuster said:
I think I need to learn more about dither. For example, in an app like sonar, if you stick the IDR on a track(or bus) so what? When you go to export the project, it's still going to ask you what to save the project as(16bit, 24bit), right? So what good is it doing?
Click to expand...
- You should only be using dither when changing bit depths.

- Dithering should always be the last step before burning a CD.

- No DSP operations after dithering... no fader changes, no crossfades, no eq, no compression... nothing after dithering.

- If you are exporting a 24 bit project to a 24 bit wave file... don't dither.

- You should be dithering only once. If you are using a dithering plugin on the master bus, turn it off in the Options-->Audio panel in Sonar.

Read this:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/OzoneDitheringGuide.pdf

Happy dithering!:)
 
I understand to only do it as a last step, I was trying to ask what the point is in using a dither plug is at all, when the bit depth is going to be detirmined by how you export the file.
 
mbuster said:
I understand to only do it as a last step, I was trying to ask what the point is in using a dither plug is at all, when the bit depth is going to be detirmined by how you export the file.
Click to expand...
Correct... dithering doesn't determine bit depth. The bit depth is determined by how you export the file, but the dither determines what goes into the 16 bits. It's either filled in with "noise" that fills out the stereo image, or it's truncated... leaving the 16 bit audio sounding edgy and harsh. The art graphic analogy on page 7 in the Ozone dithering PDF document is pretty good at illustrating this. The quality of the dithering algorithm affects how the "noise" is applied to the 16 bits that remain from the original 24. Some dithering algorithms sound better than others. Compared to analog... even dithered 16 bit audio can sound harsh. The better the dither, the more natural and... well... the more analog it sounds when 24 bit audio is forced into a 16 bit file.

You're right... If you don't select 16 bit from a 24 bit depth project when exporting... dithering doesn't help.

Remember your signal path when you export a file... track insert plugs --> track fader --> main bus insert plugs (dither last) --> main bus fader --> 16 bit file.

It would be nice to be able get the dither plug AFTER the main bus fader. Some host apps, like Wavelab 4 provide for this. I think Sonar's built-in dither IS applied after the main bus. But if you're using a high quality dither plug instead... last in the main bus insert is fine as long as there are no automatted main bus fades. Instead... automate the output gain on the plugin or destructively apply the fade in 24 bit before exporting the file.

Hope this helps.
 
SteveD said:
It would be nice to be able get the dither plug AFTER the main bus fader.
Click to expand...
That really isn't a problem, is it? Just export as a 24 bit file, open it up again and dither :)
 
moskus said:
That really isn't a problem, is it? Just export as a 24 bit file, open it up again and dither :)
Click to expand...
That's the only way to destructively apply a master fade... isn't it? :)
 
Is it? :confused:

Naw... master fade will be applied on export the first time...
 
SteveD said:
Correct... dithering doesn't determine bit depth. The bit depth is determined by how you export the file, but the dither determines what goes into the 16 bits. It's either filled in with "noise" that fills out the stereo image, or it's truncated... leaving the 16 bit audio sounding edgy and harsh. The art graphic analogy on page 7 in the Ozone dithering PDF document is pretty good at illustrating this. The quality of the dithering algorithm affects how the "noise" is applied to the 16 bits that remain from the original 24. Some dithering algorithms sound better than others. Compared to analog... even dithered 16 bit audio can sound harsh. The better the dither, the more natural and... well... the more analog it sounds when 24 bit audio is forced into a 16 bit file.

You're right... If you don't select 16 bit from a 24 bit depth project when exporting... dithering doesn't help.

Remember your signal path when you export a file... track insert plugs --> track fader --> main bus insert plugs (dither last) --> main bus fader --> 16 bit file.

It would be nice to be able get the dither plug AFTER the main bus fader. Some host apps, like Wavelab 4 provide for this. I think Sonar's built-in dither IS applied after the main bus. But if you're using a high quality dither plug instead... last in the main bus insert is fine as long as there are no automatted main bus fades. Instead... automate the output gain on the plugin or destructively apply the fade in 24 bit before exporting the file.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
ahhhhh...
 
moskus said:
Is it? :confused:

Naw... master fade will be applied on export the first time...
Click to expand...
Of course... I thought you meant that if it wasn't done during the mixdown. Fades can sound different during mastering and mastering houses prefer that you let them do it... so, if you're trying to be professional and all, and emulate master house philosophies, and perform the fades during mastering... it needs to be handled another way when using a dithering plugin. It could be exported to 24 bit and then back in for dithering, or through automating the plugin output prior to dither.

Clear as mud... right?
 
My work flow has been as follows:

1. Record 16-24 tracks @ 24/96 using Sonar3 Producers Edition
2. Render mixdown to one stereo track for mastering @ 24/96
3. Master in Sonar3 with a signal path like UAD-1 LA2A-->Pultec-->Sonitus Multi-band comp-->finalizing maximizer/limiter of choice
4. Export a 24/96 file into Sony/Sonic Foundry CD Architect for track ordering, PQ editing, and CD burning @ 16/44.1 using the downsampling and dithering capability of CD Architect

This SOUNDS great.

I do this so that if I choose to do ANY audio editing at all in CD Architect... such as cross-fades or envelopes for level continuity adjustments... it will be before downsampling and dither.

But...

I have tried Ozone, Elephant, Endorphin, and Waves L2 as the Maximizer/Limiter, and I always end up with overs in CD Architect @ 24/96 (with the master fader at 0.0), even though they don't exist in the host application before exporting.

I have tried to identify a disimilarity between Sonar3 and CD Architect, and just reduce the master a couple of tenths of a DB before exporting, but the difference doesn't seem to be an exact amount. In other words, the amount varies from project to project. I don't like the trial and error.

I find that if I downsample/dither to 16/44.1 using Ozone, L2, or even Voxengo's R8Brain before CD Architect, there are no overs.

I suppose one solution is to buy Wavelab or Sound Forge which will allow mastering @ 24/96, downsampling, dithering, AND CD burning, but I like Sonar3 and have already spent $200.00 for CD Architect. It's not like I can't get around this... it's just annoying. Not sure it's annoying enough to buy a post production mastering package.

Anyone else experience this or have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks,

SteveD
--------------
www.DawPro.com
 
I have someone at Sony Pictures (CD Architect) looking at 2 second samples of the 24/96 problem and the same segment at 16/44.1.

Stay tuned.

SteveD
www.DawPro.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top