I've got killer, huge rhythm tracks... now about the solo tone...

[Steve Henningsgard]

Alrighty, I'm tracking my band's first full-length, and I'm having a bit of trouble finding a good guitar tone for the solo's. I'm the lead guitarist, and song writer, and engineer, and "producer" (or as close as we've got hah) and as such the other four guys in my band are relying almost totally on me to get this done in all aspects.

So far, our drum tracks sound great (recorded for free at the studio I interned at with a lot of super nice equipment!), our bass tracks are thumping (DI'd through Avalon and SansAmp), and our rhythm guitar tracks are just enormous (2 performances each side, 2 mic's on first, 3 mic's on 2nd, for a total of 10 rhythm guitar tracks. It sounds awesome, as they were all solid performances if I do say so myself ).

The problem is, now that I'm at the solo's, I'm having a hard time finding a tone that I like that cuts through like a fucking screaming buttery-smooth lightning knife! So far, I've tried the same two amps we used for rhythm tracks (JCM2000 and Framus Dragon), as well as 3 different practice amps (just for a different flavor/distortion). Just for kicks, I tried a couple of amp sims as well, but they're too one-dimensional. I haven't experimented with any pedals, as I don't have any readily available, but at this point I'm sort of open to anything. I know using different amps helps stuff cut through, and I've managed to get a couple of tones to cut through, but the tones themselves weren't nearly aggressive enough, and/or were too rough. I'm looking for gobs of distortion, but it needs to be smooth. I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to borrow another high-gain like a Mesa Boogie...

 

[M10K]

Hey Steve, not really sure what kind of music you're making but...have you tried a 5150. Kind of a one trick pony (at least to me) but if you can get your hands on one it's worth trying.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Hey Steve, not really sure what kind of music you're making but...have you tried a 5150. Kind of a one trick pony (at least to me) but if you can get your hands on one it's worth trying.

Oh geez, all of that rambling and I totally forgot to mention the genre! It's mostly mid-paced metal, kinda between Death Metal and semi-Progressive Metal.

I like the 5150 a LOT for rhythm, but it's too grainy for solo's (I actually tried one come to think of it). Something s m o o t h e r I'm thinking. Thanks for the idea though! 5150's definitely rip

 

[Elton Bear]

My solo tone was pretty much the ONLY thing I was happy with in my latest recording; I used my EMG'd-out strat through a JCM900, one SM57 and plenty of amp gain.

 

[Daisy]

Have you tried using a smaller amp for the solo?

Something along the lines of a 20 watter?

.

 

[IronFlippy]

Treat the lead guitar like you would the lead vocal. I know that doesn't help with the specifics, but if get out of the "guitar" mindset, you can often think of things that might work better.

Reverb and delay can help here (use, don't abuse).

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Have you tried using a smaller amp for the solo?

Something along the lines of a 20 watter?

.

Yeah, but it was a less-than-stellar Crate solid-state amp, which unsurprisingly didn't sound too great tone-wise. I'm thinking a little Marshall might work?

Treat the lead guitar like you would the lead vocal. I know that doesn't help with the specifics, but if get out of the "guitar" mindset, you can often think of things that might work better.

Reverb and delay can help here (use, don't abuse).

Good call: the tones I got were definitely improved when a bit of reverb/delay added some spaciousness to it, but the base tones were either too muted (practice amps), or too unrefined (5150).

 

[NL5]

Can you post a sample of what you have so far?

 

[Daisy]

I'm thinking a little Marshall might work?

I think a small JCM900 combo amp would cut through glass. Or if you want a smoother distortion, I might use one of those 30-watt versions of the Mesa/Boogie Nomad combo (can't think of the name).

I just think a smaller speaker might sound more focused, and the lower wattage will allow you more breakup before the cops knock on the door. I've had much better luck through the years with smaller combo amps on the leads and bigger ones on the rythms.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Can you post a sample of what you have so far?

Although it's entirely unmixed, I've got some older samples on a myspace site (http://www.myspace.com/everestinprogress). I'll see if I can get a more recent mixdown soonish

I think a small JCM900 combo amp would cut through glass. Or if you want a smoother distortion, I might use one of those 30-watt versions of the Mesa/Boogie Nomad combo (can't think of the name).

I just think a smaller speaker might sound more focused, and the lower wattage will allow you more breakup before the cops knock on the door. I've had much better luck through the years with smaller combo amps on the leads and bigger ones on the rythms.

Yeah, I've been thinking of a smaller mesa for stuff like this, just 'cause the mesa distortion is so smooth (which is why I don't really like it for rhythm as much as my Marshall).

I'm headed off to a guitar shop in a bit: I'll post my findings!

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

I'm back from the guitar shop! I tried out every combo the place had (about 10 amps) and came home with a solid-state Hughes & Kettner "Attax 50" 1x12 Combo. The place didn't have much for tube amps, which kind of disappointed me, but I figured for $150 it was worth a shot.

This amp definitely cuts through the mix! I'm going to have to tweak/eq it a bit to get it to fit just how I want it to: delay and reverb will undoubtedly help, but I've got until tomorrow to return it if I decide on something else so I'm going to post a clip in a minute here to get some of your guys' opinions. I know the tone by itself is kind of raw, but I think it's workable.

Let me know what you think when I post it!

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Here's a clip:

Please keep in mind we're still in tracking, and as such there's not much mixing going on. Some on the Kick, some on the tom's, a little on the guitars, but really it's just to keep everything audible.

 

[NL5]

That's cutting thru fairly well. I think the problem isn't with the lead track though, it has more to do with the mix. There are so many guitar tracks going, and several panned somewhat center, that they are just overcrowding the mix. The lead is a bit harsh sounding to my ears, but I think in the current mix that's the only way it will stand out.

I did listen to the first track on the myspace page you posted, and actually liked the "wall of guitar" sound, but think it would be better suited as an accent part instead of steady thru the whole song. I think once the bass and vox is added, this will be pretty evident.

Sounds like your on the way to some great mixes!

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

That's cutting thru fairly well. I think the problem isn't with the lead track though, it has more to do with the mix. There are so many guitar tracks going, and several panned somewhat center, that they are just overcrowding the mix. The lead is a bit harsh sounding to my ears, but I think in the current mix that's the only way it will stand out.

I did listen to the first track on the myspace page you posted, and actually liked the "wall of guitar" sound, but think it would be better suited as an accent part instead of steady thru the whole song. I think once the bass and vox is added, this will be pretty evident.

Sounds like your on the way to some great mixes!

Yeah, I was thinking of using the multiple rhythm tracks to add/remove hugeness throughout the song, to add some more dynamics to the whole thing. Right now they're enormous all the time, which like you said makes it quite hard for anything to cut through. After listening a couple of times, I think I can actually track it with a little less treble, maybe move the mic's away from the center of the cone a bit, and try taking some of the backing tracks out during the solo's vs. trying to make the solos sit on top of the enormousness.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Upon further review, I'm still having some trouble getting everything to fit tone-wise. I'm going to generalize my question a bit and ask:

How do you pick what sort of tone to go for when recording solo's? Do you keep trying different tones/amps/mic's/etc. until you find something that works within the rough mix as-is? Or do you pick out a tone you like by itself, and trust that you can make it fit the mix? Or somewhere in-between?

My biggest problem right now is that, when playing live, my solo tone is the same as my rhythm guitar tone, and I just rely on my hands and a slight volume boost to make sure I cut through live. It doesn't work as well on "tape" though, as there are significantly more guitar tracks to work with (vs. live it's just me and the other guy). I tried using the same amp as the rhythm tracks with different mic's and such, but it just wouldn't cut through no matter what (my original problem).

Thanks for everyone's advice so far! I'm definitely getting closer

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Have you tried a ribbon mic? We wrapped up guitar tracking not too long ago where we used an SM7 and an i5 thru Great River & RME for all the rhythm and an i5 and a Fat Head II ribbon for leads.

 

[lenMCHC]

Here's a clip:

Please keep in mind we're still in tracking, and as such there's not much mixing going on. Some on the Kick, some on the tom's, a little on the guitars, but really it's just to keep everything audible.

i really like the solo tone, to be quite honest...

that was a H&K 1x12?
i'm looking for a good solo sound like this as well.
what mic's/placement did you use?

 

[Daisy]

How do you pick what sort of tone to go for when recording solo's? Do you keep trying different tones/amps/mic's/etc. until you find something that works within the rough mix as-is?

Na.

I generally drink a beer first.

Then I audition a bunch of different tones.



For someone who's recordings sound as good as they do ... you sure ask a lot of newb questions. I'm almost beginning to think you just need to start trusting your own instincts a little more. And no, you don't need to go flying off the handle, spazzing out either -- I mean that constructively.

 

[IronFlippy]

That solo calls for a ton of reverb and delay, in my opinion. I'd also bring the rhythm guitars down a little bit to make the solo stick out better. Other than that, you've got a good sound to work with, definitely sounds "pro". Maybe you're just being hypercritical of your work?

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

i really like the solo tone, to be quite honest...

that was a H&K 1x12?
i'm looking for a good solo sound like this as well.
what mic's/placement did you use?

Oh! Well, then.. thanks! Ha, I have a Sennheiser vocal mic and a Shure KSM27 right next to eachother about 6" from the speaker, just off-center from the cone. Full-gain, high mids/treble, low bass, medium volume, and that's about it!

Na.

I generally drink a beer first.

Then I audition a bunch of different tones.



For someone who's recordings sound as good as they do ... you sure ask a lot of newb questions. I'm almost beginning to think you just need to start trusting your own instincts a little more. And no, you don't need to go flying off the handle, spazzing out either -- I mean that constructively.

Hey, I don't hate you che.. err Daisy I just get pissed when you get in one of your "jackass know-it-all attitude" modes, just for shits n' giggles. I know it's fun sometimes, but it gets annoying.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment: I'm quite happy with how this is turning out so far! I ask questions because I am an "information sponge" of sorts, and I feel that people don't use resources like this message board (or the internet in general) enough to gather opinions and information about whatever they're trying to do. I know full-well that any knowledge I could possibly seek is most likely available on the internet, either directly or through connections with real people as on this message board: I ask questions because I enjoy soaking up knowledge and little tricks n' tips from guys who've been doing this longer than I. Think about it: there are how many thousands of people on message boards like this one? Now think of all of the little bits of knowledge they've accumulated by trying out specific amps with specific mic's, pre's, etc. It'd be impossible for me to experiment enough to accumulate just 1% of that vast amount of experience by myself! So I take other peoples' experience and use it to refine my own experimentation before I even set foot in the studio. At some point, you need to start breaking the rules yes, but it's good to get to know them first

That solo calls for a ton of reverb and delay, in my opinion. I'd also bring the rhythm guitars down a little bit to make the solo stick out better. Other than that, you've got a good sound to work with, definitely sounds "pro". Maybe you're just being hypercritical of your work?

I'm the lord of hypercriticalness man, you got it right on the head. Of course, with aspirations of producing big-time artists for a living, I suppose it's possible that some part of that personality trait might come in useful! I can only hope anyway, hah.

I definitely agree on the reverb/delay: I'm trying to get it to fit as best it can before adding any sort of effects, so as to give myself the most creative control over said effects (vs. using them as crutches!)