It's not wide enough....

[Change of POETS]

Now, bypassing any sexual undertones that may rile in some of us...

Why can't I get my mixes wide enough? It's really pissing me off.

For the most part, my mixes sound great... But one thing I can tell, when comparing them to a professional (major studio/ major budget) release is, they aren't nearly as wide...

This frustrates me. Does anyone have any tips on how to widen a melody or a bassline? Or any general tips on making a mix wider?

Thanks.

 

[bennychico11]

some of this is done in the mastering process on those CDs you're listening to.
the bassline, however, is generally just panned up the middle...unless you want some sort of stereo effect with it.

play around with delays. small phase delays in a stereo signal can help give the effect of it being wider. Wave Arts makes a Panorama plugin that tries to produce psychoacoustics in your mix...there's a demo on their site:
http://wavearts.com/Panorama5.html

How are you speakers placed too? They could be lying to you with regards to the width of your mix.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Does anyone have any tips on how to widen a melody or a bassline?

This question I don't understand. "Widen a melody line"? If it is a single mono vocal or instrument track (with no track doubling or other multitrack tricks), the only way to "widen" it is to perhaps add a stereo reverb to it in order to place it in a room and add some reverberation space to it.

And as far as a bass line, Benny is right that those are normally panned near the middle of the mix. This is for two reasons.

First, bass frequencies, when they leave the loudspeaker, tend to widely disperse throughout the room as compared to high frequencies which tend to come out of the loudspeaker more directionally straight ahead and do not automatically disperse throughout the room unless or until they are reflected by a wall or ceiling. For this reason, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to stereo pan the very low frequencies, they are going to wind up dispersing and blending and fuzzing up any stereo image they may original have anyway. Best to save the edges fo the mix for higher frequencies that can take advantage of the stereo seperation.

Second, is that if one is playing back with more than just two stereo speakers - i.e. they have a subwoover or a 5.1 surround system - center panning will typically send more of the signal to a larger quantity of loudspeaker drivers. The more speakers pushing the bass, the more air being pushed; the more air being pushed, the more responsive the bass.

Also as Benny said, there are trick boxes that can be employed on mixdown that artificially widen the stereo field using stereo phase tricks, and they can make the overall mix sound "wider", but this isn't done all that often - certainly not a majority of the time. And it also does not apply to single-track sources such as a "melody line" or the bass line.

G.

 

[xstatic]

Like mentioned above, a good share of the extra in\maging is often accomplished in the mastering phase. Also, a lot of commercial releases have an incredible amount of well tracked and well aranged and mixed layering which greatly contributes to the perceived width of a mix. One other often overlooked item is the way analog equipment seems to treat depth and imaging. This starts at your preampsa and then moves to your converters, and then often to the actual analog summing of a mix. For some reason it seems to be easier to create a wider sound stage on an analog console than it does ITB.

 

[MessianicDreams]

have you tried using an instance of a stereo shuffler on the mixdown?

also try this:

1) bounce a stereo mixdown of the track.

2) sum this stereo track into 1 mono track. what you have now is L+R, the sum of the two sides

3) take the stereo mixdown created in (1) and phase reverse either the L or R side (it doesn't matter which as long as they are out of phase). bounce this down to a stereo track. what you now have is L minus R, or the difference between the two tracks.

4) mix these 2 tracks together, adjusting them till you're happy with the stereo spread.


this is, to my knowledge, a very basic stereo shuffler, and is rather brute in the way it works..but it could give you some ideas.

 

[FALKEN]

putting some movement into your mix might help. a lot of it is the arrangement.

 

[bryank]

well....make sure your tracks are panned accordingly first. if you have multiple instruments, go ahaead and pann some stuff left and right about 80% (guitars, drum overheads, splash/crashes/etc....)

if this still dont work........

slap a 'widening' plug-in in the master buss/track. some are better than others........Waves makes good ones. you can find free ones at www.kvraudio.com too..........

good luck

 

[Massive Master]

"Space" generally requires "space" - Then, don't get in its way.

Move some mics around - Pan creatively - Don't overcompress (or record signals that are too hot). The space isn't only the space - It's the dynamics *in* that space.

 

[BigRay]

you could also try experimenting with Mid Side recording , which is a technique that gives you absolute control over the width...

 

[chessrock]

... when comparing them to a professional (major studio/ major budget) release is, they aren't nearly as wide...

This frustrates me.

Why does it frustrate you? I think you may be setting some unrealistic expectations for yourself.

You're not recording at a major studio with a major budget, so chances are you're not going to get a major studio / major budget sound, and the stereo imaging / width aspect is part of that.

I don't sit around and get frustrated when my home cooked meal doesn't taste like a 4-star restaurant. I don't get frustrated that I don't get professional magazine-cover photos with my digital camera ... or that my girlfriend doesn't look like Carmen Electra or Heidi Klum. Why get worked up over why a certain aspect of your mixes doesn't sound like a comercial venture that likely had millions of dollars poured in to it's production?

Some perspective might be in order. In the meantime, I think SS Glen gave some good tips. I was going to mention his tip on the wide panning of elements that contain higher frequencies; i.e. tamborine, shaker, accoustic guitar, etc. You'll get a lot more mileage out of the separation. Do a lot more stereo mic'ing (and subsequent hard-panning of the stereo tracks). Do more doubling of certain parts (and hard-panning them as well), along with the use of room mics ... which you can then pan to the opposite side of the close mic'ed track. Pan your reverbs and delays to different places. Lots of different tricks you can try.
.

 

[masteringhouse]

Funny how many complain about the width of their mixes here. Listening to many home recordings depth (front to back) is more of an issue to my ears.

The main techniques to achieve depth are judicious use of EQ, volume/dynamics, delay/verb. It's no secret. Perfecting the use of just these three elements can take years though. Also work with these elements not just from the board and effects, but with mic choice and placement, and room choice and placement.

Listen to the difference between a sound that is in front of you, the same sound a few feet back, then back further. Try to simulate this with just these three elements and I guarantee you mixes will sound more pro than slapping on any magic plug-in. After all, depth/width/imaging in recording has been done well way before digital effects were even around.

 

[chessrock]

Very true, Tom.

Well put.

.

 

[RedStone]

I think the trick is knowing what the problem(s) is (are)

what are you compromising and why ... always think of everything as you mix (speakers, room, instrument, mikes, how it sounded as you were tracking ...) and ask ... why am i doing this tweak ... what will it help, and what could it hurt?

In mixing, every action is reciprocal --- meaning if you change something in one octave, another octave is perceptually effected in reverse (to some extent)

 

[Theo_C]

Width or Depth

I agree with "Mastering house", I think many people tend to mistake lack of depth for lack of width.

There are so many factors that come into play with a mix. For instance; monitoring can play a huge part in the way you perceive the mix. Having diffusers on the rear wall facing your speakers can improve the stereo image you hear. If you also place acoustic foam absorbers on the walls at each side of your speakers, you eliminate side reflections which can cause cancellation of certain frequencies, and again change the way you hear the stereo image. So what I'm saying is that room acoustics play a huge part in the way people mix their music.

If you think about it, say you are listening to an acoustic guitar right up close, the sound takes up the whole stereo field of hearing. As the guitar moves away you can pin point its location more accuratetly because it is closer to one ear than to the other, so the direct sound from the guitar doesn't take up the whole stereo field, it seems to be coming from a particular place.

What happens as it moves away, is that the direct sound dies away, and the ambient sound which is reflected off the walls becomes more apparent. So your brain interprets this as the sound moving away from you. At this point the sound is less intimate but more ambient, it seems to have more depth (and width!).

As a sound moves further away, the treble dies away faster than the bass frequencies, so the sound becomes less clear. This is the case when using reverb; a really distant sound has very little high frequency content in the reverberated signal reaching your ears.

In terms of dynamics, distant sounds are dynamically flat; ie, very compressed, whereas close up sounds are uncompressed and have strongly varying dynamics.

So you can seriously widen! your mix by knowing these things and giving each instrument a 3 dimensional space to inhabit (as in real life, rather than a 2 D space by just using the pan)

Again, the above explanation is a very simplified view of what happens, but should give you an idea of the things to look out for when trying to get more depth and ultimately more width in your mix.

Cheers
Theo C


http://www.theoc.co.nz

 

[chessrock]

What happens as it moves away, is that the direct sound dies away, and the ambient sound which is reflected off the walls becomes more apparent. So your brain interprets this as the sound moving away from you. At this point the sound is less intimate but more ambient, it seems to have more depth (and width!).

As a sound moves further away, the treble dies away faster than the bass frequencies, so the sound becomes less clear. This is the case when using reverb; a really distant sound has very little high frequency content in the reverberated signal reaching your ears.

In terms of dynamics, distant sounds are dynamically flat; ie, very compressed, whereas close up sounds are uncompressed and have strongly varying dynamics.

So you can seriously widen! your mix by knowing these things and giving each instrument a 3 dimensional space to inhabit (as in real life, rather than a 2 D space by just using the pan)

Nice.

.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

wait, wait, wait...

so you guys are trying to tell me that there's a THIRD dimension?

fuck, man...this throws my whole perception out of whack

 

[RedStone]

As a sound moves further away, the treble dies away faster than the bass frequencies, so the sound becomes less clear. This is the case when using reverb; a really distant sound has very little high frequency content in the reverberated signal reaching your ears.

I think that migh only be a half truth. In the context of a speaker and a room it makes sense but in the context of mixing, I don't follow.

For example, with layering in a mix, you could typically have something that naturally has more harmonics in the 8-10th octaves (such as a triangle, or a hi-hat) panned, say, 25% left and lower in volume than another instrument with more harmonics in the 4th -6th octaves that is panned 25% right because high frequency sounds that are "non-frequent" tend to stick out.

In terms of dynamics, distant sounds are dynamically flat; ie, very compressed, whereas close up sounds are uncompressed and have strongly varying dynamics.

I don't think this is entirely the case for mixing. If you are listening to a low level sound (at -48dB) that jumps up 10dB (to -38dB), the change will be quite noticable, so you will have to compress it to make sure it stays un-dynamic in the mix.

 

[boingoman]

I think that migh only be a half truth. In the context of a speaker and a room it makes sense but in the context of mixing, I don't follow.

He's saying that's how we perceive depth in an audio field in real life, and we can use reverb to simulate that depth.

I don't think this is entirely the case for mixing. If you are listening to a low level sound (at -48dB) that jumps up 10dB (to -38dB), the change will be quite noticable, so you will have to compress it to make sure it stays un-dynamic in the mix.

That's what he's saying- compression can be another tool to help add depth, as we naturally perceive distant sounds, even dynamic ones, as having reduced dynamics. Listening to a guitar amp go from "5" to "10" sounds very different at 30 feet as opposed to 5 feet.

 

[masteringhouse]

Some information on the inverse square law may help with understanding this concept. See:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acoustic/invsqs.html

 

[bryank]

funny thing is........just to experanment with the whole depth/space theory...........thay make plug-ins in which you can place the instrument in a "spacial realm" and control where the instument lies in a 3-d space. i have a few, and it usually contains a grid.........and a 'persons head' in the center of the grid. If you place and instrument to the left of the head.....the instrument is panned to the left speaker.......and as you push it further away from the head.....it slowly decreases in volume. Its a neat tool to let people undertsand how 3-d space works in realation ship to panning and volume. another cool feature found on the plug-ins is that once you find a nice spot for your instrument.........you can change the visual graph.....and it will show the actuall decible level ( increased or decresed by how much) and the panning level ( panning % left or right)............

such a great tool. use it to learn the techniques on obtaining 3-d space, and add some reverb to it.........damn.......sounds good.