Is there minimum db levels when mixing?

T

taikuri54

New member
I dont know why, but usually my master bus peak is something like -20db cause i can push volume from the soundcard to speakers.

If i put some limiter to master bus and try to push levels something like -5db i heard lots of clashing and it does not sound as good as lower volumes.
And all my "instruments" are vst so everything is digital..

Is there some kind of "rule" that you cant push that much volume up if the original material is way too low?
 
Try just raising levels -master level or the tracks too, to get it where you want it -skip the limiter for now.
 
If the master buss is PEAKING at -20, that is really quite low. The average level should be around -18dbfs or so. Like if you shut the drums off and measured just the average sustain of the song, it should be bouncing around -18dbfs, then turn the drums on and the peaks will be bouncing around -12 to -6dbfs.

There is no need for a limiter to bring the peaks up to -5, you could simply turn the volume up. The limiter only comes in handy for getting the average level up to a point that you wouldn't be able to get to without clipping.
 
Getting a ride in this thread, I have a question... I have mixed all the songs of my first CD (that I finishing now) to touch 0 dB. Is this a wrong practice?

Anyway, after to mix down all the tunes and 'master' them to play at the same level they still sound decent. Although they don't have the aspect of commercial cuts (they sound more like demos) even after to apply limiter and compress to make them louder I still can notice dynamics, profundity and the sound didn't get squashed.

That's why I am confused and asked the question. I am sure that I may have made several mistakes due to my inexperience, but it still seems to sound good...

:confused:
 
YanKleber said:
Getting a ride in this thread, I have a question... I have mixed all the songs of my first CD (that I finishing now) to touch 0 dB. Is this a wrong practice?

Anyway, after to mix down all the tunes and 'master' them to play at the same level they still sound decent. Although they don't have the aspect of commercial cuts (they sound more like demos) even after to apply limiter and compress to make them louder I still can notice dynamics, profundity and the sound didn't get squashed.

That's why I am confused and asked the question. I am sure that I may have made several mistakes due to my inexperience, but it still seems to sound good...

:confused:
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If you've already raised the levels to 0dB, then applying compression/limiting is going to start squashing everything, and you'll lose all your dynamics.
 
mjbphotos said:
If you've already raised the levels to 0dB, then applying compression/limiting is going to start squashing everything, and you'll lose all your dynamics.
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MJB, to fix that is as easy as to reduce my levels to -6dB in the master faders of the mixes?
 
If you're already peaking at 0, and it still doesn't sound or feel loud enough, then you must reduce the dynamic range. It's best to start by automating/compressing/limiting the individual tracks, then groups of tracks, then the master if necessary, but just turning it down can't help.
 
Nola said:
what causes this problem?
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Ummm...poor dynamic control at performance, tracking, and mixing. ;)

Though, TBH, there is almost always one or two places in a mix where everything just accidentally happens to be pushing in the same direction at the same time, and that will cause what I call an "aberrant peak" that can sometimes be several db louder than any other peak. These really just use up headroom and push your average level down, and there's not generally much to be done other than smash them down or clip them off with compression/limiting/saturation on the master bus. Some folks would leave that til actual mastering time.
 
Nola said:
what causes this problem?
Click to expand...

Too much dynamics for the volume you are trying to achieve. If you want something really loud, it can't be dynamic. Compressors and limiters reel in the dynamic range, so that you can get louder without clipping.
 
I am confused... in my specific case the levels of my mixes don't raise 0dB. They just touch it because the peaks because I don't use any compressor in my tracks unless to help leveling guitars and vocals signals but not for increasing volume purposes or for 'glue' the mix. Basically I keep mostly of the original dynamics of the original tracking. That's what I meant when I say that my mixes touches 0dB (just the peaks).

Now, I am completely dumb on the mix thing so please sorry if my question will sound too stupid: there is a way to set the level monitor of master channels then it will read the overall signal level but ignoring the peaks? I am sure that if I did such reading the overall level of my mixes would be way lower than 0dB...

:confused:

PS: I use Reaper and already tried to switch the monitor leds between Peak/RMS but it doesn't change anything.
 
I'm not familiar with Reaper, but switching to RMS from peak sounds like it should be what you want. Maybe there is a different setting or a different meter you can get.

What I don't understand is what you are trying to do. if you don't want to compress or limit your mixes more than they already are, and your peaks are touching 0dbfs, they are as loud as they are going to get. There is nothing more you can do, short of limiting the peaks to bring the volume up. If you don't want to do that, you are done.
 
By default, Reaper's master meter shows both peak and RMS. The peak meters are on the outside and their maximum value is at the top. RMS meters are inside, and their max values read out at the bottom. I think the default RMS window time is 300ms, which I believe is standard for LUFS, but I sometimes like to see a longer integrated average, so sometimes set it a lot longer.

The difference between your peak levels and the RMS is your dynamic range. If that's much more than 12 for most of the track, then it absolutely will sound/feel quiet compared to about any modern mix.

In mixing stage, it's best to focus on that dynamic range number more than the absolute levels. You can always crank it up (or down) to get your peaks close to zero later.
 
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Farview said:
I'm not familiar with Reaper, but switching to RMS from peak sounds like it should be what you want. Maybe there is a different setting or a different meter you can get.

What I don't understand is what you are trying to do. if you don't want to compress or limit your mixes more than they already are, and your peaks are touching 0dbfs, they are as loud as they are going to get. There is nothing more you can do, short of limiting the peaks to bring the volume up. If you don't want to do that, you are done.
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Farview, all my mix and mastering job in this project was done kind of empirically and the way I did it is just fruit of my inexperience and ignorance.

What I was trying to achieve here is a set of songs that play at the same level and that don't be too low. Just that.

What I did was:

1) Mixed the tunes peaking at 0dB
2) Picked all the stereo mixed down songs and loaded them into a new project (one in each track) then I could jump around and compare their levels
3) Added to the FX channel of each track an 'easy to use' plugin with compressor, limiter, equalizer and stereo enhancer
4) Choose one of the presets that came with this plugin that gave me a basic feel that pleased me
5) Applied the same preset in all tracks (songs) and raised/lowered the gain accordingly until obtain a similar level in all songs
6) Made some slight tweaks in the tracks
7) Done

At the end I got a pretty good result (for my non-professional standards and expectations of course). I have listened to the whole set several times in different equipment and the songs play all at the same level and reasonable loud. Sound don't seem to be squashed and I still can notice some dynamics. Also it seems to have a good frequency balance.

All in all I am kind of satisfied with the result. I am not saying that it is super-good only that it worked for me for this project. But I would like to know how to do it better for the next projects and not be so empiric... I hope you get my point...

:)
 
ashcat_lt said:
In mixing stage, it's best to focus on that dynamic range number more than the absolute levels. You can always crank it up (or down) to get your peaks close to zero later.
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Ash, this is very valuable tip. Thank you for that. I will certainly keep it in mind on my next mixing job!

:)
 
YanKleber said:
But I would like to know how to do it better for the next projects and not be so empiric...
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If by empiric, you mean actually listening to the damn thing and turning the knobs til it sounds good, I'd say keep doing that. :)

You might learn some techniques to streamline the process - to know which knob to grab when, rather than fiddling with several to get what you want - but if you ever figure out how to look at the numbers and apply a formula or preset, you'll have missed the point entirely.
 
ashcat_lt said:
If by empiric, you mean actually listening to the damn thing and turning the knobs til it sounds good, I'd say keep doing that. :)

You might learn some techniques to streamline the process - to know which knob to grab when, rather than fiddling with several to get what you want - but if you ever figure out how to look at the numbers and apply a formula or preset, you'll have missed the point entirely.
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Cool, thanks, good point!

Mostly, yeah, I do that... turn knobs and stick with what pleases me. Basing on what you said above, I think I am in the right way!

I won't tell you that I don't use presets though. Hey, a preset is not something entirely bad. I understand exactly as a paint can, they won't fix a bad surface, but sometimes they work as a good starting point or even as an aid to show you that there is something wrong. These easy to use amateur plugins for mixing/mastering have saved my @ss and helped me even to learn things, when for instances I see the parameters and I can immediately hear how it reflects in the sound.

I have been a well succeeded IT professional and a graphic designer for around 30 years. Currently I am almost a retired senior. Things in my area used to be too much harder in the beginning of my career than today. Nowadays we have several nice tools that I even could dream about before. But the funny part is that now I am so used to do things in the good old way (sometimes even reinventing the wheel!) that I must recognize that I have a lot of resistance on try templates, presets and such. But it doesn't mean that they are crap just because I trust more in my own feeling. I have seen several young professionals doing things as good as mine (and even better) using all those tools that I refuse to try.

I hope it make sense.

:thumbs up:
 
Good news then. Gads I was going to ask you then did you get that 'original problem sorted out, but now I see that was the OP -another one :rolleyes: that never came back to his own thread..
 
mixsit said:
Good news then. Gads I was going to ask you then did you get that 'original problem sorted out, but now I see that was the OP -another one :rolleyes: that never came back to his own thread..
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I noticed that the OP has only one post and probably is like several members that register in the forum with the hope that their first and unique question will explain the meaning of life. I ended hijacking his thread and although he never came back at least it worked for someone else.

:listeningmusic:
 
ashcat_lt said:
By default, Reaper's master meter shows both peak and RMS. The peak meters are on the outside and their maximum value is at the top. RMS meters are inside, and their max values read out at the bottom.
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Just realized this isn't quite right. The RMS meters are the ones on the outside, but they definitely read out at the bottom.
 
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