Is it too late to learn theory/music composition?

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Roozter

Roozter

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I have written 40+ songs of acoustic guitar and lyrics. Actually good songs. But when I write its more of a matter of luck. A roll of the dice really. Recently I decided that I want to scrap my songs, because to me they are not cohesive enough in genre, and in the feel of the song. Now I am more interested in making multi-instrument oriented songs where each instruments part is written with eachother in mind, instead of writing an entire songs with lyrics on the guitar, and then building around it.

The instruments I want to incorporate in my music are probably going to be guitar, piano, drums, bass. I dont have a band I can work with, but also I dont know any music theory, really I have no music education at all. I write great songs, but dont even know what chords im playing, or what key im in. I think I only know 2 scales in total.

Im 19 now, do you think its too late for me to learn all of that? Id love to be able to sit down and score music. Or be able to jump in to a group of musicians jamming and just start playing. Ive got raw taw talent coming out of my ass, and a small home-made studio to work with, not to mention an oppurtunity to send a demo to a producer in Nashville before I move out of the state through someone I impressed out of the blue. Im sure I could impress the producer with what ive already written with no problem, but I dont think I could make much of a career out of it 4-5 years down the road, which is my goal. Im pretty sure the producer would get interested in me until they found out I was more or less musically retarded, and would require a year or more of constant schooling in theory at least. Ive got a voice, Im marketable, disregarding theory im very intelligent, I can write lyrics well. The raw talent is there, but I cant freely apply it on command. Does anyone have some advice on this situation? Im kind of in a place musically where I dont want to move foward with my current music in a career sense, I want to either work with a band, or make tons of new songs in a band type fashion by myself, I just dont have the time, or the education to actually do so before I get out of here.
 
I mean Ive got a huge focus/attention span issue, and I wonder if its kind of one of those, you need to learn it young or it will never really stick. Youre from England, I watch football whenever I can and I know its a sport where if you dont start young you can forget playing professionally at the highest level.

Im just kind of anxious about sending a demo to a producer with absolutely no musical education. I cant even read music. But Im sure that Ive got some kind of theory knowledge, just no indentification of it if that makes sense. It would be one thing if that was the case and I had at least basic music education, but im basically a musical retard. I want the dynamics you can get from a band, and im not living anywhere near any place with tons of dedicated musicians. I feel like I could write more, but I cant manipulate what I write in anyway. The way it comes out is the way I get it, if it comes out like blues, or it comes out like classical music, or rock, I cant seem to make it sound any other way. Does that get shored up with the instruments in the arrangement and the arrangment itself as well as producing/mixing/mastering?

What would you suggest I do to learn all this? Im not going to college for music. Should I buy books on composition, early music education, and theory? take private lessons? or both?
 
Lol I though you were going to say you were 59!!


Go for it. People are learning new skills retraining and changing careers much later in life.
Increasing your knowledge on something you can apply immediately is such a fulfilling experience.
What a great skill to have too. What seems like a real challenge now you will look back on and really be pleased if you do it.

Also don't think of it as a finite process. Once you start learning basics it will open up your understanding for more questions and answers. It's an ongoing infinite journey. Wish i did it.
I'm 52............ Maybe I'll look back when I'm 62 and wish I'd started it today.
 
Paul McCartney can't read music, and doesn't know theory. Elvis only knew 5 chords on guitar.
 
Roozter said:
I mean Ive got a huge focus/attention span issue, and I wonder if its kind of one of those, you need to learn it young or it will never really stick. Youre from England, I watch football whenever I can and I know its a sport where if you dont start young you can forget playing professionally at the highest level.
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It's like that in most sports, but don't think that it applies to music. In music you're not limited in your ability by age!
 
Toker41 said:
Paul McCartney can't read music, and doesn't know theory.
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Not strictly true. He's picked up lots of theory since 1956 !
Toker41 said:
Elvis only knew 5 chords on guitar.
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That's why he had Scotty Moore playing in his band !

In all seriousness though, 19 is, by the average age of the people on this forum, not far short of babyhood ! It's never too late, but especially at your current age. If you began all your stuff right now, by the time you're 22, you'll be utilizing much of it.
The longer you put things off is the longer they are put off. And as someone once said "I didn't get where I am today by being somewhere else !" :D
 
You indicate you think you write good songs and you desire to improve - so you must have some level of passion. Often, that passion can off-set any attention disorder you think you may have. Where there is desire - there is a way.

At 19 - you're still a young pup. I started playing drums at about 5 and guitar at about 15 and keyboards at 18. I did not actually learn to read music until I was in my 20's (I'm still not a good reader). I decided to learn theory in my 30's - and I'm still leaning at age 59.

In the last 10 years - I've developed chops on harmonica, violin, banjo, lap steel and pedal steel ............. you are never too old!!!!!
 
Wow. At nineteen, you've got all the time in the world. :)
You can do it, man.
 
My mum started learning French at 60. And my Dad bought a keyboard when he was over 70 with the intention of learning to play and write some tunes.
 
Yes..it`s too late..FAR too late, you`d have to deal with alot of up and comming 13 year old music masters..ya may as well pack it in, your an old dog, that will not be able to learn new tricks..

WTF...come`on man..if it`s too late for a 19 year old, that what the hell am I thinking..jesus dude, your killing me man..LOL

Really though, no, defiantly not too late, not in the slightest, you got the whole world infront of ya...give er hell..
:guitar:
 
the overwhelming majority of guitar players I've run across (and I'm 44...) in my life? I could prolly not come up with FIVE that could actually read sheet music. A lot can decipher tabs, tho...

it was once the dirty little secret of nashville (and pop?) that a LOT of the famous performers couldnt read music. (nashville number system, anyone? lol)

so no, I really don think the producer you want to impress will be put off by your not knowing composition, sight reading, scoring... etc etc...

thats on the ONE hand. On the OTHER hand? Uhm...

your NINETEEN. start learning theory and composition and reading/writing sheet music. It can only help, and will allow you to do a lot of other things than just put lyrics to some guitar strumming... your musical tastes will change as you get older, trust me, and this will allow you to EXPAND into that larger, more mature set of tastes...

and p!$$ on your "age"... I didnt START learning ANYthing about pitched music till I was pushing 40. *shrugs* (I was a drummer when younger, but no experience with ANY pitched instruments, lol)

I mean... if you want to make songs like "name", then by all means, composition and theory likely WILL be "useless skills"

but... if in the future, your tastes mature? And you want to make something along the lines of an extended FLOYD tye song? Or vintage "simple, yet somhow complex" a-la old fleetwood mac? THEN you'll have some grounding to allow you to tackle that style of project...

PS - and THIS is very important... back in the 80s? we were all very impressed with "guitar heroes" solo masters... they had to master neo-classical shredding and such... when interviewed, they said things like:

"whoa, dude. You, like, play with the sounds you like... and you, like, change the sounds you are making until they are COOL, you know, man?"

and everyone claimed to play only by "ear" and to have absolutely no formal classical music training. WHy?? Simple... the "selling" of the "package" to the kids was that these guys had supreme raw talent, and just partied, did drugs and booze, and screwed hot 15 year old groupies all day and night long...

...which was NOT the case in many instances.

many of those impressive "heavy metal mushbrains" were actually big "theory geeks" behind closed doors, LMAO (this crap continues to this day... no one wants to "admit" they study music like its a biology class, lol...

my best friend from college was a pretty good guitarist. he KEPT playing faithfully to this day, and when I heard him play 10 years out of college? Wow... kinda sounded a little bit like George Lymch when he solo'd... anyways, i was always asking questions about pitched music... he always fed me the line about playing by ear, and just, like, you know, making it cool, you know?

years later, I BUSTED him talking "musical calculus" with the singer in his band, lmFao... I let it slide and jumped him about it later that night when alone!

You kow what he said?

"Okay dude... I've been reading an studyin for YEARS about music theory. Okay?"

"WHY didnt you TELL me? So I could KNOW what I had to get started DOING? Why LIE to me? your best friend>? for YEARS?"

His answer? Oh, it was a peach...

"Aw dude... I didnt want you to think I was a geek, you know?"


(mind you? we were comp.sci. majors... we were by DEFINITION geeks, you know? lmFao...)

learning composition and music theory... will allow you one day to get into soundtrack work, producing your own bands, etc etc... or even simply putting that ONE big, instrumental, track into your CD... so people hear it and go "what the &^%$! Thats some wild stuff there... THAT guy is serious, you know?"

heres a good analogy...

my "boss" at work is the son of the owner. He's young, he never graduated high school, and he's not one of those "educate yourself" types, either. As a matter of fact, he likes a lot to make fun of me for having 2 university degrees... and in general, being pretty much a "geek" type of guy...

"You don' need a degree in math to run a cash register, you idiot!!" he always says...

*big dramatic sigh*

Well, if his parents ever open up FOUR MORE shops, all of a sudden my accounting background will suddenly come into play, wont it? LMAO...

i can DO MORE, if and when I ever want to, or have to... because i am properly educated, and i have continuously educated MYSELF in various disciplines.

go for it, dude. You wont regret it...
 
Go for it dude!
Ask yourself if it'll be harder for you to live with knowing that you wanted to learn something and didnt or that you learned something and didnt use it?


It's never too late to learn anything :D

I remember when I first started playing guitar (I was 12) I was really upset because I thought I should of started earlier. I thought it was a habit type thing that needed to be developed at a young age. I was wrong. Learning at any age is learning. I think it's natural though for all people when theyre learning something new to feel like that skill should have been developed earlier. I think it comes from the frustration of wishing we didn't have to deal with the learning curve :p I personally enjoy learning new things, because it helps me learn more about myself, other people, and life in general. Directly or indirectly.
For instance now, I'm really interested in learning about electronic type music. MIDI, virtual instruments, etc. Mainly because after a certain period of being intrigued with it, I wanted to see what it was about. I may never use any of it in my music, it might lead me to becoming an anthropologist, I may be led to develop some sort of software myself, it might be a waste of time and money, i may burn my guitars and become a street performing dj. Who knows?
At a bare minimum, I'll have another life experience. And the more of those, the better.

Learn all you can in life, and don't let anyone tell you it's too late to learn.

btw i didnt know that you were supposed to tune guitars until a year after i started playing :eek: I just thought you wound the strings until they were tight. It's pretty weird to think that if someone had told me it was too late to learn to tune a guitar, and I would've listened to them I wouldn't be posting this reply :p

-sunny
 
kidkage said:
btw i didnt know that you were sujavascript://pposed to tune guitars until a year after i started playing :eek: I just thought you wound the strings until they were tight.
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I bet the neighbours thought you were some avant garde guitar genius though; "Wow, can he improvise ! Never plays the same thing twice !" :D
 
Reading through your post, I was expecting you to be at least 60 years old. Dude, even Slash started playing the guitar when he was 17! It's not too late at all.

Would love to hear some of your songs.
 
You're too late, they quit teaching theory yesterday. I read it on the internet so it must be true. :laughings:

Who here doesn't have attention/focus issues?? We're musicians!!!

So, at age 19, you're probably in or considering college. Take theory as an elective. Even if you're not considering college, you can still take some night classes. Whether theory will help you write better songs or not, I don't know, but you will have a better foundation incorporating other instruments into your songs, or being able to play along with other people in an impromptu setting.
 
Toker41 said:
Paul McCartney can't read music, and doesn't know theory. Elvis only knew 5 chords on guitar.
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Ever heard the basslines in Sgt. pepper? Either he knows SOME theory, or it took him a year to figure that stuff out...
 
deejuks2 said:
Ever heard the basslines in Sgt. pepper? Either he knows SOME theory, or it took him a year to figure that stuff out...
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The 'Pepper' basslines were actually more inspired by Brian wilson and James Jamerson, the Motown bass player. They first started appearing on "Revolver" and the two singles recorded in those sessions, "Paperback writer" and "Rain". He says that he noticed that Brian Wilson would do unusual {at the time} things on bass like if a song was in C, he'd start it playing G and those kinds of descants opened up what could be done on the bass. He realized almost by accident that the bass guitar could control a song and be more than just a root note replicator. It's also worth remembering that even at the time of Sergeant Pepper, the bass guitar was only 15 years old. It had had no prominence in rock and no one wanted to be the bass player. It was, in McCartney's immortal words 'for the fat boy at the back'. Many many bassists of the 60s were bassists by default, not design, as was McCartney himself. It was guys like Jamerson, Jack Bruce and John Entwistle that elevated bass guitar. And they were all classically trained theorists, none of whom began on the bass guitar.
Theory is useful, I don't knock it. But when I think of bass lines, I think in terms of whether something fits and works. I thought like that even when I didn't know the names of the notes on a bass {which I didn't for the first 7 years I played}. So I don't think McCartney's Pepper basslines were the direct result of theory.
 
So does anyone have any suggestions on the best way to learn theory? Ive got mountains of time on my hands. Almost no money though.

One reason I want to learn theory is to me, it seems anyone with set in stone (in their mind) theory knowledge can generally sit down with any instrument, and after figuring out where the notes are, begin playing like theyve been playing it for years.

Its like for someone with theory knowledge, all they have to do is get the little tricks and techniques of the instrument down, the physical aspects of it I guess.

BTW I dont think Paul McCartney or Lennon is a good example in my case. They had the perks of Abbey Road Studios, George Martin producing, and EMI's endless funding for them. Anything they wanted they could have, and im sure George Martin helped them arrange and write numerous times. I dont have those perks.

Keep in mind The Beatles stopped touring and had tons of studio time on their hands, as well as time in general after that.
 
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