Is it the mixer?-even SM81 sounds bad!

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omtayslick

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Over the past couple of months I have been trying different mics, borrowing and in some cases buying and exchanging them in pursuit of better sound. I am recording voice and a 20 year old Martin D-35. (a nice sounding guitar in most peoples' book)
After playing mic-around-the-rosy for a few months, I have the at the moment the following mics worth mentioning:
own: Shure SM81
AT 3035

on loan: AT 4033

Problem is: They're all running through a Behringer 602 mixer.
Is this mixer really THAT bad? Everything sounds thin with a sometimes nasty, tinny high end. EQ settings are all "flat", good mic positioning at the 12th fret, room is not treated but has thick carpet and few reflections, etc. The SM81 and 4033 I have used in other settings, so I know that I'm not hearing their true performance in my current set-up. I'm considering getting an audio buddy to hold me over until I can afford a "real" micpre. But will something like the Buddy, (in this low price range) give me similarly bad results? Is it a price range problem or Behringer problem? Or both? Has anyone else experienced this kind of sound with this mixer? Is it really that bad? Help!!!!!

Tom
 
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while i'm not farmiliar with different models....i have a behringer mixer and i geat great sounds (for the price, of course) and am pleased with the quality.......from what i have read, it's a price range problem.....while i have no personal experience with high end pre's, the consensus on this board seems to be that going from say a $100 pre to a $500 pre would probably be best saved rather than upgraded because there isn't a very high return in results for money spent at that low of a range
 
i've never had a behringer nor an audio buddy, but i do have a dmp3, which is apparently quite similar plus better phantom power. i haven't tried it on acoustic yet, but i'm pleased with what i get from it amping my overheads (mxl603s.) From what i've read, these pres are a nice step up in a logical progression from crap (behringer) to real pres. also, perhaps the dmp3 would be a good idea because you can stereo mic that way, instead of two buddies or just a single mic.

Of course, there are also other flavors which i have no experience with but which are also highly recommended... studioprojects' vmp1 (that's the right model, eh? or am i thinking of a peavey? something along those lines, at any rate) and FMR's upcoming, though apparently a little more expensive, RNP are two that come to mind.

IOW, based on my limited experience and reasonable reading, it would be a good idea to get a better pre in the meantime. unless, of course, you're planning to pull out all the stops to get a 'real' pre, in which case just save your money; buy cheap and buy twice, as they say - i know i'll be buying again sooner or later, though the dmp3 will still serve a purpose, im sure.
 
sorry, vtb1, not vmp1. i think the vmp1 is peavey's model, and it's more of a 'real' pre. =P
 
are you recording into a soundcard?
if so, which one?
your signal chain is only as strong as its weakest point.

and i would called a card such as a SBLive (im using one now), to be a weak link, and a behringer mixer, also a weaker link.

It might be worth it to someday sell the behringer and get a mackie mixer or a soundcraft mixer. Im certain of the exactt price difference, but i know the quality difference is quite a lot. The mackies are known for having very quiet, and good preamps for the price.

But, if you have a behringer, into a sblive, into some cheap recording softwear, each lin k is taking its piece out of your signal. Its hard to say, but if you find that your not satisfied with the results your equipment is giving you, and you've outgrown it, maybes its time to upgrade?

Im sorry but i don't have any experience with the behringer mixers, so i can't say directly, but in your setup, even if your using a sblive, i'd say the behringer is your weakest point, and a mackie or soundcraft board, or even another preamp for just one nicer channel might be worth it.

But as the person above said, it may not be worth it to add one semi decient preamp, and it might be best just to save a little longer and get something better.

I would say the best option for you would be to get a mackie or soundcraft board, small one, and see how you like that (try renting one for a month and see if it fixes your soudn quality problem), and then when you outgrow the quality of the preamps of the mackie/soundcraft, get a better outboard preamp to plug into the mixing board
the mackie/soundcraft are excellent quality boards, and it would be most economical just to add better outboard preamps to your arsenal, rather than a newer board. You have to spend a LOT more money to go above and beyond the quality of those boards.

sorry for the rant, but, yea... See what works for you. Its easy to give out advice, but i really don't know your situation, and maybe saving for a new mixing board really isn't feasable. But i would definatly recomend renting one just to try it out.
im renting a mackie 1204 right now, only 4 preamps, but they're nice, its a solid little board. i get good results into a sblive with a sm58/apex 410 condensor.

i think im paying 40 dollars canadian for a 1 month rental. thats something like 25 US?
 
Is it the mixer?

The soundcard is an Aardvark usb3. usb device with line in (stereo only) and a small internal pre that seems excellent. Only problem is, the pre is 1 channel (I'd like 2) 1/4" input only, and no phantom power. But soundwise I don't think it's the weak link at this point. Sounded pretty good with a battery powered condenser. (shure BG 4.0)
Renting the Mackie 1202 might be a good idea. I've had my eye on it, and heard good things about the XDR pres. Also have been researching the DMP3. Haven't heard anything negative about either one. The only scary comments are those "good for the money" things. Not sure what that means. Bubble gum is good for the money, but it ain't no steak dinner! But if I could find a pre that's hamburger, that would be ok.
Thanks for the comments guys. Any further comments or suggestions regarding the 602, DMP3, audio buddy or 1202 will be appreciated.

Tom
 
If you're using an SM81 to mic a Martin D-35 I don't think the problem is your mike.:)
The SM81 is a fantastic mike for that application. (I own 2 of them)

I'm not at all familiar with a USB sound card. I didn't even know there was such an animal.

I don't own a berringer mixer, however; many people on this board do. While it's pre's are certianly not hearlded as great, I have heard people get acceptable results using them.

I would suspect that the problem lies in the USB device.
What sort of bandwidth/resolution does it have?

The only way to know for sure is to change out each unit in your chain one at a time.

Now, you've already tried different mikes. I doubt the berringer is the problem, but you could rent the mackie, and try it, just to know for sure.

Really, I would suggest first, getting a new mike cable, it could be as simple as that and it's the least expensive alternative.

Have you checked the input levels at the sound card itself? Make sure they're not set too low in windows....

If those few things don't work, come back and I'm sure more people here can help out.
 
omtayslick said:
They're all running through a Behringer 602 mixer.
Is this mixer really THAT bad? Everything sounds thin with a sometimes nasty, tinny high end. Tom
Click to expand...

No, Tom, it isn’t that bad. Something must be set wrong or the mixer is defective.

I recently recorded a tune for Flatpick Guitar magazine’s companion CD using the 602 which turned out great. The artist I recorded was using a Collings D2 which I captured using a Studio Projects C1. I fed the mixer into a Presonus Bluemax compressor and then into a cheap-o Turtle Beach soundcard (all we had available at the time). I figured it’d be a little rank, but it actually (to my surprise) turned out quite well. I a-b’d the final mix to some pro recorded, similar material and it was way closer than I was expecting.

I do remember getting a sound like you described once upon a time. Seems like the phantom power wasn’t on, or something simple thing like that. Can’t remember, though.

The only way to find out is to try and isolate the problem. Try another channel, another mixer, etc. Hope this helps and let me know what you find.

-Flatpicker
 
Another thing – Listen to the mix via headphones at the mixer. If it sounds alright here the problem may be further down the line.

-Flatpicker
 
sorry, what i meant by good for the money, is that to get better preamps in a mixing board you have to spend well over 2000 dollars. They are excellent preamps in an awesome board, for a great price.
 
omtay, get the Studio Projects VTB-1!
It's WAY better than the pre's in your Behringer.
It delviers pro level sound IMNSHO.
www.bpmmusic.com had a deal where you get free 2 day shipping. (thanks again Gidge for clueing me in on that)

Chris

P.S. I also have a Behringer 802A.
 
It wasn't the mixer

Thank you all for the valuable advice and suggestions. Here's what I found out.

Thanks Flatpicker: You said to listen at the mixer w/phones, and that got me thinking. I burned off a cd and listened to it on car stereo and home stereo instead of my recording "monitor system". It sounded really decent. Best recording of this guitar I have gotten on my home set up. (which is exactly what I was hoping for by adding the SM81) I have concluded that I have WAY underestimated the value of decent monitors. (I have Roland MA-8 powered speakers, which are fine for keyboards and such, but apparently not acoustic instruments.)

Michael Jones: I agree that theSM81 is great for this application. That's why I was upset, I'd used it before and gotten great results. I've had mine a couple of days now, and since I've figured out what's going on, I love this mic!

ambi: Sorry you thought that "good for the money" comment was directed at you. It wasn't, it was a general comment. People are always saying "good for the money". I just thought maybe something like excellent, good, fair, poor, forget-about-it, might be of more value to us. But maybe that would be difficult to do, as this stuff is all so subjective. However, I think you were pretty clear in what you meant.

Chessparov: VTB1 is WAY better than the Behringer. Good! That's something worth checking out. When we spend a some dough it's nice to get something that makes a substantial difference. It goes to the top of the list to check out when new pre-amp time comes.

But based on what happened here it may be new monitor time first. Any suggestions? (that are good for the money?--just kidding)

Thanks,
Tom
 
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