is API overkill for me?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MadMax
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MadMax

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I've been recording rock drums lately, and there's something not quite there with the sound. Others (Pros) have been impressed with the drum sound I'm getting, but to me, it doesn't sound "open" enough. I'm using RME Fireface as a front end into Sonar and I want to upgrade my drum pres from an A&H MixWiz. I've heard that API is the way to go for drums, but will the subtleties be lost going analog into my Fireface? I'm thinking along the lines of my signal path is only as good as the weakest link. I don't want to drop $2500 just to have the sound mucked up by my conversion. Although I'm pretty happy with the Fireface. Anybody use a similar setup that can give me some real world experience?
 
Sort of similar I guess. SCA A12 pres into RME Multiface. I think API pres are a great investment for anybody ready to take the next step up in quality. It sounds like you may be ready. However, I would really like to upgrade my convertors too. There is a pretty drastic difference between the input monitored signal and the direct monitored signal through the conversion and software. I don't know how much closer the more expensive convertors will get me to the input monitored sound, but I'm betting it will help. Although my mixes do seem to turn out OK in the end. And the Fireface may be a bit better convertor-wise than the Multiface.
 
Two things are NEVER overkill - Great monitoring and great preamps.

A microphone will only ever sound as good as the preamp driving it allows it to.

A mix will only ever sound as good as the monitoring chain will allow it to (the rest is luck).
 
Yeah but collecting new awesome gear is fun Chess!

My vote is yes...but that's cause I wish I could.

Jacob
 
jkokura said:
Yeah but collecting new awesome gear is fun Chess!


I suppose it can be fun for a while. Until reality sets in, and you're basically just staring at a box with buttons and holes in it. :D

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BigRay said:
www.davelectronics.com/bg1.htm world class pre...David Gilmour and Mark Knopfler both use them..700 usd for two channels.

add a mytek stereo 192 to that(adc)
still be less than 2500...
and yep, heaven.

I just ordered a stereo96. what made you go with the 192?
 
david gilmore mark knofler? aint those guys older than old school. i would never buy a piece of gear based on that. now if it were ashlee simpson or those gals from the pussycat dolls i would buy one
 
upgraded circuitry, DC powerable, better sound(though not glaring differences).up to 192 khz abilty(for archiving)...the big draws for me were the sound and the DC power. I do location classical recording so battery power is a plus.



FALKEN said:
I just ordered a stereo96. what made you go with the 192?
 
Hey Chess, why do you think it will be a overkill? Serious. Is it more a mixing problem. Yeah I know you can't tell without hearing it first.
Are you saying that the MIXWIZ and FF is good enough?
T
chessrock said:
In all likelihood, I would say it's probably overkill.

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Tonio said:
Hey Chess, why do you think it will be a overkill? Serious. Is it more a mixing problem. Yeah I know you can't tell without hearing it first.
Are you saying that the MIXWIZ and FF is good enough?
T


Well, I'm not chess, but I'll answer anyway. I am an admitted gearslut, and what i would say is, yes it's overkill. I have an api 3124, and a Great river, and some so-so pre's. Guess what? On the list of "things that really made a difference" to the overall sound, preamps are pretty far down the list. Drum tuning, the room itself, the treatment of the romm, the drummer, the converters, and the mics all have a bigger impact IMHO - as does the person who places the mics and the guy that mixes the tracks........just my .02
 
On the list of "things that really made a difference" to the overall sound, preamps are pretty far down the list. Drum tuning, the room itself, the treatment of the romm, the drummer, the converters, and the mics all have a bigger impact IMHO - as does the person who places the mics and the guy that mixes the tracks........just my .02

OK, I'll buy this. But there has to be some methodology to this.
Assuming the drummer has been playing for 30 years and has recorded in many studios and knows how to tune his drums. (Mapex maples with Zildjian K's and Sabians) Then I'm left with;

1. The room. My room is 18x20 with 24' ceilings. Semi damped with gobos and blankets on the walls to absorb flutter. No Standing waves that I can hear. Basically, a pretty dead space. But I'm close micing.

2. The converters. RME Fireface & ADI-8DS via lightpipe @24/48.

3. The mics. D112 inside the kik. SP-C1 about 2' in front of the kik. Beta 57 snare top. C-1000 under snare. SM-57 on Rack tom. SM-57 on Floor tom. Rode nt-5's xy overhead. All going thru A&H Mixwiz.

4. Me mixing in Sonar using Sonitus eq's and comps.

All I'm doing is simple rock drums.
 
That actually sounds like a pretty nice setup. I, personally, would spend the $$ upgrading the overhead mics before I would the mic pres, but that's just me.

Yea, I know I'm totally backpedaling now, but if you have the money to blow, then why the heck not, I suppose? :D

It's always a good idea to have the very best equipment you can afford. And assuming this is for a serious project that you're hoping to release or get major airplay, etc. (assuming it's an investment that might pay for itself down the road) And if eveything else is in place, then it certainly can't hurt to upgrade to API -- particularly if you're tracking drums, of all things.

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Whether the API's are overkill depends totally on how much you value the improvement in sound they will bring. You may find you feel that they were worth it, no matter the price. It just really depends on how much you want the sound of the drums improved.

The factor is money. How long will it take for the API's to pay for themselves? i.e. how many sessions will you have to record to make back the money spent on them?

I've got gear that paid for itself quickly, and I've got gear that never paid for itself. But that's different than how much I like the gear based on sound.

For $2,500 you could possibly put together a package of gear that might be a bigger improvement than just adding API preamps to your current setup. The sticky thing for you is that you are miking drums, so you need more of everything. A stereo preamp and stereo converter might just not cut it.

I like BigRay's suggestion of the DAV BG-1, but that's two channels. You might want to look at their four channel box, or two BG-1's. That should still leave you with $1,000 to play with. Or get two channels of preamps and upgrade a couple channels of conversion.

API's would sound great too, there are a lot of different ways to go. There's also a mic pre made by Purple Audio called the "Biz" that has always intrigued me. It fits in the API lunchbox. You might think about getting a lunchbox and filling it with a couple API's and a couple Purple Audio preamps.
 
SonicAl;
The API unit I'm looking at is the 3124+ which is a 1ru device with 4 API 312's in it. Nothin' fancy, no EQ. Just 4 channels of that great API pre sound.
And this unit won't pay for itself, at least I'm not expecting it to. But I do have some cash to play with. I'd rather spend the money now on stuff that I'm going to stick with and I could potentially not lose money on if I ever did decide to sell it. I think with the API stuff, it's a solid investment. So, back to my original question, Is there anything better for rock drums than API? -OR- maybe I should be asking; If I get the API pres, will I then need to get 451's & RE-20's?

ChessRock;
What would you suggest for overheads? KM184's? And, no, I don't expect this to get major airplay, but I think I could benefit from making the best sounding recordings that I can. I've got a pretty serious connection that can get my stuff to the heavies if he likes it. He's past his glory days, but they're into the "Greatest Hits" phase of their careers and he regularly meets with management & the suits organizing their summer tours, etc. In fact I might be going out on tour with them this summer, but I digress, I've probably said too much. Anyway, he could also send some talent my way if I impress him some more and my place could potentially turn out to be a money making project studio. But I'm not banking on it. I'm just a 40 something guy with a little cash to spend.
 
I agree with you NL 100%. I guess the gear purchasing bug has got me since I have some money to blow :D I'm just trying to get some opinions based on the same premise MM is at. But the more I ask, the more i find that I need to look at different approaches. In my case I may be better off getting better monitors and work on the acoustical treatment. Thanks for saving my dough and reiterating the pilot capturing the moment.

MM, the room size seems like its doable. Maybe make it more live, instead of totally dead? 24' ceiling is not bad at all. Try to bring back the mics, not close, since you want it more open. There are other choices in mics that could help also. I agree that the NT5's could be replaced with something to flavor the sound your looking for.
T
 
If these recordings are going to be heard by people in the industry and are part of a career plan, then you absolutely should get the best you can afford. And don't stop with the preamps. You may find the investment pays for itself and more beyond that, looking at the long big picture.

The tough thing about this business is that very often you have to shell out the money in advance to get the gig, or to move up to better work. That's just part of the deal. I know guys that say they'll spend the money on their studio when they get the TV scoring gig they want. Guess what? I have yet to see anyone with that approach get the scoring gig they want. You've got to be able to deliver the product first *in order to get the job*.

So now that you've shared a little bit more about your situation, I would say by all means spend the money on the gear. However, do take a look at the API lunchbox thing and the Purple BIZ preamps. Don't get too locked into only one way to do something, or only one piece of gear. There are always a lot of different options to consider, especially when you can afford to spend more than just a budget amount.
 
I certainly think that the API preamps will make a pretty big difference. Especially on drums and guitars. Basically anything that you want to be really punchy and ballsy. However, I would seriously consider adding some different drum mics before you spend all that money opn API's. One nice thing though about the API preamps is that in a few years you could sell them for almost what you paid for them. They hold their value extremely well. If you want the API sound, I would also advise that you actually buy API, and not a clone. So far the only "clone" I have heard that really comes close is the Averill ones.
 
I don't think the Purple BIZ preamps are a clone, they are their own deal, but designed to fit the API lunchbox for practicality/standardization reasons.
 
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