insert cables, TRS to TS ...the TS is unbalanced, right?

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earworm

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..i'm talking about the well known insert cables,
one end TRS, the other end two ts cables....send and return..

now, i've been thinking about this, and find it a bit weird,
all my compressors are balanced, well, everything in my rack is,

now when i connect my mixer inserts with my insert snake to my patchbay...
then i got all these TS (unbalanced) jacks plugged in my patchbay...
does that mean that now my entire signal chain is unbalanced?

or does that mysterious "electronically balanced ins and outs" on my gear fix that? what is that anyway, "electronically balanced"...

i want it loud :D no -6db for me please...
i'm a bit confused here...

thanx in advance
 
earworm said:
..i'm talking about the well known insert cables,
one end TRS, the other end two ts cables....send and return..

now, i've been thinking about this, and find it a bit weird,
all my compressors are balanced, well, everything in my rack is,

now when i connect my mixer inserts with my insert snake to my patchbay...
then i got all these TS (unbalanced) jacks plugged in my patchbay...
does that mean that now my entire signal chain is unbalanced?
Click to expand...

No, just the send and return to the compressor. The signal is going to be 'unbalanced' as soon as it enters the mixer, so there is no signal loss--the mixer insert is designed to work with unbalanced connectors.

or does that mysterious "electronically balanced ins and outs" on my gear fix that? what is that anyway, "electronically balanced"...
Click to expand...

Nothing is broken, so there is nothing to fix.

Electronically balanced usually means the signal is balanced with an opamp circuit, versus transformer balanced, or impedance balanced, which merely uses a few resistors.
 
does that mean that most mixers have unbalanced inserts?

cause thats the case here, whenever i plug a cable in my inserts the volume drops, lets say 6db ..

i just woke up, what i just read isn't really clear...
if there is more you can say about it, please do...
it seems like the ins and outs of the compressor are unbalanced then;;;

but why..why do compressors have balanced ins and outs and are all insert cabes on the "split" or "y" end unbalanced...

something isn't right here i think..

:confused:
 
Yes, a standard insert cable is unbalanced on the send and return plugs. This is standard for your budget mixers. Many nicer mixers however have balanced inserts on seperate jacks. As far as I know, you should not lose any volume just because of the unbalanced inserts. Have you chaecked to see whether your insert jacks are +4 or -10? A lot of budget mixers have -10 inserts. The biggest problem with standard TRS to TS insert cables is the increased capacity for noise. However, since insert cables are typically less than 15' (5m) in length, this is usually not a real issue. Most quality low end to mid range rack gear is capable of accepting either +4, -10, xlr and 1/4" (TRS or TS) signals and connections. A lot of your high end stuff is setup for +4 signals with balanced XLR cables.
 
The inserts are not balanced because the cable run is short enough that it's not an issue. The TRS end is not balanced, it carries two signals, send and return, and uses a common ground. The volume drop is because the insert sends the whole signal away from the mixer and whatever you're running it through is turning it down.

Hope this helps.
 
ok i'm getting closer to understanding this,
i don't have a manual or schematics of my mixer, since its old and blabla,

now lets say my next mixer has balanced inserts,
then plugging my insert cables in it makes it unbalanced again..

should i get a TRS to 'dual XLR' snake then? so i connect all my compressors with the XLR ins and outs?

but even that doesn't seem like a solution since you say that the TRS end of an insert cable is unbalanced, (send , return and a mass, not ground, right, just bitching here :p)
its still vague to me, but it seems like you can't have complete balanced inserts-to-compressors ?
sorry that i keep on hammering but i won't sleep before i figure it al lout ;)
 
earworm said:
now lets say my next mixer has balanced inserts...
Click to expand...

I know of no mixers with balanced inserts. But I don't know everything.
 
thats weird isn't it...why on earth is all our rackgear balanced...
any suggestions for google searches i can do on this?
wanna read about it so i understand better WHY,

"why mixers don't have balanced inserts" doesn't really give me the info i need... any quick links or suggestions? or books will be fine too,
schools not needed, already going to one :o
 
earworm said:
"why mixers don't have balanced inserts"
Click to expand...

Two XLRs take up too much space in a channel strip vs one 1/4", and the cable runs for inserts are generally very short.
 
I know of no mixer that costs less than a house that has balanced inserts. If your mixer had balanced inserts, you would have separate send and return jacks.

The reason the rack gear is balanced is because you don't always run compressors in a mixer insert. Sometimes you would put it between a mic pre and a recorder. That signal path would be balanced.

Back to your problem, If you are loosing signal, you either don't have the compressors inputs set at -10 (assuming they should be) or, you are 6db into the reduction and you need to turn up the make up gain.

There is nothing wrong with your stuff. Everything is working as it was designed to work. Nothing to see here. Go about your business.
 
apl said:
I know of no mixers with balanced inserts. But I don't know everything.
Click to expand...

They are out there, they just cost too much for us :D
 
My console does have balanced inserts. My Allen heath ML5000 down at the shop has balanced inserts as well. They are on seperate send and return jacks. There are planty of consoles that are balanced. Just not usually in the lower price ranges. Using a TRS to XLR insert cable will not rebalance your signal. It is purely a different format of plug.
 
i've learned alot today,
now,
i'm not a quitter... if i'm correct its a general rule that if your mixer outs are -10 , then your compressors should also operate at -10... so they are "matched"... BUT, my question,
if my mixer inserts are -10db,
and i put my compressor at +4 ....then the overal signal will be louder, no?

so// if i do that, the compressor receives a rather weak signal (-10)db,
and gives a louders signal (+4) back to the return (to the insert of the mixer)
..then this return signal might distort the mixer?

honestly i got all my compressors set at +10 cause i think thats best..
why..? cause i just guess its louder... this might be of no importance in real life,,,but what's the case in theory...
i KNOW that my inserts are pretty 'silent' ...should i really put all my rackgear to -4 then?

:o
 
earworm said:
i've learned alot today,
now,
i'm not a quitter... if i'm correct its a general rule that if your mixer outs are -10 , then your compressors should also operate at -10... so they are "matched"... BUT, my question,
if my mixer inserts are -10db,
and i put my compressor at +4 ....then the overal signal will be louder, no?

so// if i do that, the compressor receives a rather weak signal (-10)db,
and gives a louders signal (+4) back to the return (to the insert of the mixer)
..then this return signal might distort the mixer?
Click to expand...

No, it won't return a louder signal unless you dial in an extra +12dB of makeup gain. Also, it will be receiving a quieter signal than it expects, so you'd need to adjust the threshold accordingly.

Bottom line: first, figure out what level your inserts are. They could be -10, 0, +4, or something else. Next, if your compressor is selectable, set it to the same level.
 
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