In-ear-monitors vs. Hot Spots vs. floor wedges (another live setup ?)

[Ed Dixon]

This to me actually seems like a great example not of why a stage mic would be needed, but why in ear monitors maybe should not be used. Any mic that picks up that voice will also pick up a washed out version of everything else on stage. Throw that washed out sound directly in your ears and it will almost always sound even worse.

It's a gain issue. The stage mics are set low, so you get little from them except when nothing else is going on (like when someone is talking).

Anyway I add it up, it hear much better with IEM than with other options. It also lowers the stage volume by a considerable factor.

Ed

 

[johnny5dm]

This to me actually seems like a great example not of why a stage mic would be needed, but why in ear monitors maybe should not be used. Any mic that picks up that voice will also pick up a washed out version of everything else on stage. Throw that washed out sound directly in your ears and it will almost always sound even worse.

As for small clubs etc... if you roll in with a rack of in ears, you aren't saving anyone any time or space. Realistically you are just adding to the amount of crap backstage and the wedges will still be out there waiting for the next band. You will most likely be drastically increasing the amount of necessary soundcheck time. Unless you plan on traveling with your own snake split, monitor console, mics, cables, and stands, then you are probably asking for a bigger headache than using wedges with a rare payout. If you are traveling with all of that stuff, than you will still usually require more time to get all set, but the payoff will be good if it is all implemented properly.

In the end, in ear monitors are not the savior that so many people originally thought they might be. There are many bands that are currently switching back to wedges rather than earpeices for various different reasons. The trend of everyone switching to ears has definately come to a halt, but will still always have its place.

I'm usually on board with what you've posted on HR, X, but there are definitely some important factors here to mention, especially when it comes to bands that use the same system over and over - churches are one example, but a band that travels with their own PA is another.

Ed mentioned the ambient mic with IEMs, and while I agree with your reasoning about washed-out stage sound, the more driving factor in that situation is keeping stage volume to a minimum. Most churches don't run more than 90-95 dBA at FOH, and at volumes that low, monitor bleed becomes a HUGE issue. Turning up the monitors loud enough for the musicians to get energy from each other often leads to large doses of monitor sound reaching the main audience = VERY muddy. IEMs are a life-saver here.

As for the equipment/setup time issue... yeah, you're probably right on that, but again, for the band using the same PA repeatedly, IEMs are a great space-saver compared to wedges. No amps, no wedges, no bulky cables - a few rack units and a case of receivers. And as for sound-checking... yeah, ears take a little longer, but the results are usually worth it. However, it's worth mentioning products like the Aviom or HearBack systems - it's all we use now at the church I run sound at, and it actually saves a huge amount of time, since the musicians make their own monitor mixes. No monitor engineer needed, and FOH engineer mixes just FOH. Granted, there are limitations, but I just think it's worth pointing out some of the exceptions to the general comments you made.

To me, the biggest advantage of IEMs is the hearing protection value. When coupled with a good subwoofer, audience mics and a good engineer, you get the majority of the feel at a much lower volume.

Oh, and interestingly on the stage ambience issue - Sensaphonics started making IEMs with microphones in them that let you mix in stage sound. Obviously someone is interested in them.

*steps off soapbox*

Thanks for listening

 

[RAK]

That's actually a darn good idea! If I ebay a used headphone amp and combine it with a good set of earbuds, I'd still be saving well over 100 clams. If I decide IEM's aren't for me, I only lose out on the cost of the earbuds. If I do end up liking them, I can buy one of the lower end wireless setups from Nady -of which everyone seems to recommend upgrading the earbuds for anyhow- and I'll already have a good pair to work with.

It just might work!

Maestro - the isolating and hearing protection properties are a HUGE part of why I'm considering these. I always use earplugs to protect my hearing, but they have one design flaw - they have to remain in the ear to be effective! What usually ends up happening is I don't hear myself very well in the mix or I have that "stuffed up" feeling and can't tell if I'm in key or not, so one or both intermittently gets removed.

The only problem with using a regular old headphone amp is they don't have the built in limiting capabilities of in-ear monitoring systems, so you can still run the risk of overloading the system.

As for the ambient mic thing, I'm sure it's just a matter of personal preference. Many like to have a little of the stage and/or crowd put into the mix to create more of the live feeling that can sometimes be lost when you're totally isolated. But then agian, others like being totally cut off and having a pure mix. If it's mixed well, I think an ambient mic can can add something nice.

And going to back to the earphones themselves, again it's a matter of personal taste. There a lot of options out there, with both fit and sound quality. If you don't go fully custom right away, and instead go with a universal fit option, it may take a while to find the the best sleeve size and type for you. It's very important to have a good seal to get the best sound. And many universal fit earphones can also be adapted for custom sleeve use.

 

[RAK]

That being said, DO NOT plunk down your cold hard cash on in-ears until you've test-driven some. I've used Shure's E1's all the way up to E5's and not gotten a sound I liked out of them yet. I really want them to work for me, but wanting and having are two different things. Floor wedges have been used since stage monitoring became necessary, but they are bulky, inefficient and leave you with flat spots across the stage. Hot spots are so localised, you can barely move without dropping out of the sweet spot.

Have you had a chance try the E500s yet? I'm assuming you've tried all the various sleeve combinations. If it's a fit issue, have you thought about getting custom molds? Just trying to troubleshoot a little for ya.

 

[mikeh]

I've used in ear, hot spots, large wedges - and for many years, no monitors at all.

If, the whole band has in ear (in particular if only volcas are in the moitors) and has taken the time to get the mixes right (critical if more than vocals are in the mix) and if the band can be displined to keep stage volume down (rarely a given) - then with the additional value or the hearing protection - in ear is a very good option. However, if all those factors are not present, in ear can pose more problems than solutions.

Hot spots can be a good option for a keyboard player or drummer to hear vocals (in particular if there is limited room) - but they are limited in both volume and tone (ie: no low end).

I still prefer floor wedges - but they do take up a lot of space and are a paid to haul.

 

[quadrajet]

The more I thought about it and weighed the pro's and con's, the more I think IEM's wont work for me. I haven't ruled out hot spots for my system yet though. I've had plenty of experiences with wedges, but I've never used a hot spot monitor. A few people on here said they have, but really didn't say much for or against their use. It seems the conversation has focused on the IEM's for the most part, so I guess I should ask for those of you who have used hot spots - how did they work out for you?

 

[johnny5dm]

My only thought is that I don't think they'll put off the volume you'll want. I've used them, and they have a good bit of power, but no low end, and can't reach concert-level volumes. Seriously... just try headphones at a practice or something...

 

[mikeh]

Hot spots have limited power and only work if you have them basically near ear level and you don't move much (a lead vocalist with mic in hand would not be an ideal user). As others have said they don't put out much low end.

Hotspots are functional if the basic stage volume is kept reasonably low and if only vocals are in the monitor. If the band gets loud on stage and/or if you are sending drums, bass, etc. into the monitors - hotspots start to show thier weakness.

I use my hotspot for pickup gigs that I know won't get too loud (jazz gigs, etc) or if I know the stage will be too tight for a wedge. In those types of gigs it is almost a given that only vocals will be in the monitors. Since I gig mainly as a drummer (sometimes on keys) I am in one place and the hotspot can work for me. I use a drum rack system and I actually have a mic stand (minus base) clamped to the rack so the hot spot is next to my ride cymbal.

If I was in a band where everyone was going to commit to in-ear and if the PA had proper limiting/feedback control (so my ears would not take a beating) I would consider in-ear. To me, in-ear has to be a group committment.

 

[mikemorgan]

Have you had a chance try the E500s yet? I'm assuming you've tried all the various sleeve combinations. If it's a fit issue, have you thought about getting custom molds? Just trying to troubleshoot a little for ya.

No, RAK, haven't tried them. I'm sure the mold idea is a good one. I can never get any bass response out of the earbuds I've tried, and headphones are just a little too Eric Johnson for me.

I didn't mean to single out your Shure models as inferior in any way, just that someone had already mentioned E2's, I think. I don't own any of the Shure models, but have had pretty unlimited use in order to try out different options. I guess that's why I haven't bought one yet.

By the way, if I can bend and ear here.....why not make an all-in-one wireless mic headset with earbuds and appropriate transmitter/reciever beltpack?? or do you already????

 

[RAK]

No, RAK, haven't tried them. I'm sure the mold idea is a good one. I can never get any bass response out of the earbuds I've tried, and headphones are just a little too Eric Johnson for me.

I didn't mean to single out your Shure models as inferior in any way, just that someone had already mentioned E2's, I think. I don't own any of the Shure models, but have had pretty unlimited use in order to try out different options. I guess that's why I haven't bought one yet.

By the way, if I can bend and ear here.....why not make an all-in-one wireless mic headset with earbuds and appropriate transmitter/reciever beltpack?? or do you already????

Mikemorgan,
No offense taken at all. Everyone's ears and tastes are different, so I did not feel you were saying they were inferior, I was only trying to offer some suggests of other things to try, if you still want to. The most important factor to getting good bass response is having a nice tight seal in the ear. Also, sometimes people discover a big difference when they change sleeve types or sizes (or both).

If you have a chance to demo the new E500s, you might want to try them out. Unlike the E5 which has one woofer and one tweeter, with the crossover in the cable, the E500 has two woofers and a tweeter and the crossover inside the earphone.

We do not currently have an all-in-one product like you describe. We do have wireless mic headsets, and wireless in-ear systems, but they are seperate systems, where each would need their own transmitter/reciever.