importance of preamps when recording a loud source?

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tim_oreilly

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I have a dumb question about mic preamps:

When you are recording a source that is very loud and very little preamp gain is needed, does the preamp influence the quality of the sound any more or less than if the source is quiet and a lot of gain is needed? If yes or no, why?

Thanks in advance!
Tim
 
Differences may show on paper but I've never noticed it in terms of what I heard. A loud mic just means less chance of noise I think and that's about it.
 
Yes it does.

If the source you are recording is quieter, then it's a little more important to have a quiet pramp or your singal-to-noise ratio won't be very favorable. When you're recording very loud sources like drums or electric guitar, then you can get away with a little noisier preamp.
 
That's not what he asked guys unless I'm misunderstanding his post.
 
I think he's asking - if the mic outputs a strong enough signal so you need little or no pre-amp gain, then do you need to have a good pre-amp. I think the answer is that if you need a preamp at all, then the quality of that pre-amp is important. However, the quality of the preamp is particularly important if the mic has a very weak signal. Cheap preamps sound bad when they're boosted too high.

I've never heard of a mic that outputs line level signal without some kind of amplification circuit.
 
if you have a device in the chain it's going to change (change) the signal no matter what, as long as the signal passes through the device. It may or may not add more "color" as you jack up the preamp, but it will definitely be more noticeable in the quiet sections either way, by nature of human hearing.

-Sal
 
I think Sal pretty much read the post the way I did. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the same thing; that he was asking if a low pre-amp gain would color the sound any differently than a high one. He also mentioned that he had a strong signal already which was why he didn't need much pre-amp gain. In a situation like that I really don't think there's much difference in sound that you could notice. Maybe it depends on the pre-amp though. I would imagine that a tube pre would change in tone more with the input signal than a non-tube model just because of the way tubes react in guitar amps. That's just my very unscientific guess.
 
windowman, it would seem that you are making a career out of "guesses" around here.....:rolleyes:

There IS no right answer to this question. There is ONLY what sounds good. PERIOD!!!

Now, the problem with assessing this question in ANY way is how do you get the same EXACT sound at the source between quiet and loud? You CAN'T! There is no way to make a source sound at a microphone sound the same quiet and loud. Too many other things come into play.

So, the right answer is:

Which way sounds better to you?

Indeed, the biggest issues involved here are:

Sound to noise ratio. Having to really boost the mic pre DOES effect the sound quality because it introduces much more NOISE. NOISE is NOT your friend in recordings (well sometimes it is...but that is a different story and explaination altogether...). And by the way mr.knowitallwindowman, the reason why compressors DON'T EVER go in front of a mic pre is because of NOISE. EVERY unit in a signal chain adds NOISE! It makes absolutely, and it NEVER has, to introduce NOISE BEFORE an amplification circuit, like a mic preamp. A mic pre is suppose to boost a very low voltage source into a higher voltage output. It hopefully will do so in a very linear manner (but even the best don't....they are just better than cheaper units....but cheaper units have their place in audio...), and hopefully, the pre will boost volume adding as little NOISE as possible to the signal. The more boost you need to apply, the more noise it applies. Now, why the hell would you want to run a noisy compressor circuit before a circuit that is going to amplify NOISE? Jesus....rediculous.

Next. Gain control Potentiometers tend to be very sensitive in their extremes. This can be problematic when the Pot. is doing something as sensitive as adjusting volume. Also, not all Pots. are perfectly linear in their taper. So, operating them in their extremes can prove to cause problems getting the right gain you seek. Most pots. and faders like to be ran in a certain "zone" per se, and you will get finer control in those zones. This is of little concern on preamps with fix gain stages, like a Focusrite Red.

Anyway, like I said earlier, there really isn't a "this is law" answer to this question, and well, it is sort of a stupid question! ;) But a very good stupid question actually that was good for the sake of discussion and learning about WHAT will effect the sound.

Eddie
 
Hi guys,
Thanks for all the replies - and thanks for the lesson, Sonusman - and hey, at least I KNEW it was a stupid question! : )

I probably should have asked my question in a more specific way. Bdemenil actually caught my drift the best.

I asked the question for 2 reasons.

First, I play (and have begun taking a stab at recording) loud guitars. And I was basically wondering whether a good preamp be wasted if I don't need to use a heck of a lot of gain on the mic preamp? How much of a difference would there be between a good and OK preamp or a good and bad preamp? Or maybe more specifically, will you notice a big difference between a "colored" and a "transparent" preamp?

Second, I record using a Korg D-16. And annoyingly, ALL of the analog inputs have built-in preamps. There's no way to bypass them. I can only turn the trim on the inputs all the way down. So my question is, are these onboard preamps going to color the sound I'm getting, even with the trim all the way down? I ask because there actually IS a way to bypass the onboard preamps: the S/PDIF input. But that would require either a preamp with a digital out or an external A/D converter.

There you have it! Thanks again for all of the comments so far, and any further help would be much appreciated!

Tim

p.s. In case you are wondering why I use a Korg D-16, I need something portable and I don't have a car (I live in NYC).
 
"windowman, it would seem that you are making a career out of "guesses" around here....."

And you're still a sissy faggot. If you ever get to St. Louis way, do drop by and give me the opportunity to show your nose to my fist.

"There IS no right answer to this question. There is ONLY what sounds good. PERIOD!!!"

Gee, that sounds familiar. Are you sure that hasn't already been said. At least bring something new to the table, idiot.
 
Well, at least you know I am right windowman.

Compressor before preamp...man, that just cracks me up!!!

Eddie
 
I have a Korg d1600 and have found it's preamps to be acceptable in this instance. Try it and see. I think you'll be satisfied. I even use the Korg pre's tracking vocals with a condenser mic. Bottom line, they were more quiet than my crappy Art pre and the sound was excellent. Even though you can track with a great pre amp, I think the Korg handles the signal better with it's own pre's. Plus, it's a whole lot easier!
 
Shockwave, take a guess at what preamp I used on almost every track of this mp3:



Ed
 
I'll take a listen when I get home but I'll take two guesses. You either record with a d1600 bare foot with no external pre's or you tracked with an Art pre. Let me clarify, the Art is useable. In fact I love what it does for my steel pedal guitar! I just had too much noise when tracking vocals, no matter how much tweeking I did with the thing. The Art is very good with certain instuments going direct in, but that's all I found I can use it for. Maybe mines defective?? My opinion, of course.
 
Well, you take a listen. Two preamps were used on that recording, ART, and a TLAudio classic. The TL was only used on drum overheads and to bottom of the Leslie.

That is a 414 to the ART, to a Levelar for vocal. If a lot of noise was introduced, you would be hearing a LOT of it because that vocal is squashed to hell using a Cranesong STC-8 at mix down, with about 6-8 compression average over the WHOLE vocal part, not just peaks, meaning, it was constantly compressing at least 6-8dB.

It could very well be your unit. I have used the ART's for many years now, and for some very high quality audio work. It has constantly delivered very good results on ANYTHING I put it through. Indeed, there are times when another pre has the type of sound that is more pleasing to my ears, but it isn't that terribly often really.

Anyway, just thought I would share that.

Eddie
 
Nice track! I have to believe mine has something wrong with it. I'm talking about Art tube mp studio. Either that or I'm just not setting it up the right way, because your track is a great example of what this pre can really do.
 
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