Importance of (closely) matched overheads?

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How important is having closely matched overheads for drums? I don't mean matched like stereo pair, but even having 2 different (but sonically similar) mics. The reason I ask is for the most part (on a right handed set) the farther right you go, the more low tones you'll have. So would it not make sense to have a mic on the right side that has a sweet spot a bit lower than the one on the left?

Also, I only have a straight stand which I use with a 2-mic adapter to record overheads XY style. Are there any pros/cons to putting the stand in front of or behind the set?
 
fivestar said:
How important is having closely matched overheads for drums? I don't mean matched like stereo pair, but even having 2 different (but sonically similar) mics. The reason I ask is for the most part (on a right handed set) the farther right you go, the more low tones you'll have. So would it not make sense to have a mic on the right side that has a sweet spot a bit lower than the one on the left?
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While you CAN use two unmatched mics to record drum overheads, the most accurate results will be with two matched mics. (But this may not be the "best" results, only the most accurate.) Using a mic that favors the bottom end on the right side may give you too much bottom end.

Also, I only have a straight stand which I use with a 2-mic adapter to record overheads XY style. Are there any pros/cons to putting the stand in front of or behind the set?
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Usually, you place the mics behind the set to try for a picture of the whole set, including the toms. Placing the mics in front of the set (and in close) is used to favor the cymbals.
 
You can try the Recorderman Method for placing your overheads, and get excellent results.

The intent is keeping each overhead equidistant from both the kick and snare impact points.

A visual aid to grasp the concept can be easily fabricated from 1/2" PVC pipe for a dollar or two. Make a "tee" out of PVC.

Position the single end (bottom) of the tee at the kick. Visualize the mics at each end of the tee top. No matter which way you turn or move the tee, both mics are always equidistant from the kick.

Next, attach a string to each end of the tee-top so it makes a loop of string. The mid point of the string is where your snare impact point locates. Making the loop longer or shorter brings the mics closer or farther from the snare, but does not disturb the equidistant geometry.

The end results is both your kick and snare being dead center in a stereo overhead mix. Once you find "your sound" by varying the string loop, you can quickly repeat your setup.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
While you CAN use two unmatched mics to record drum overheads, the most accurate results will be with two matched mics. (But this may not be the "best" results, only the most accurate.) Using a mic that favors the bottom end on the right side may give you too much bottom end.
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So is there a time and place where unmatched may be better? Say for instance, I have a not-so-great room in which I'm recording...
 
fivestar said:
So is there a time and place where unmatched may be better? Say for instance, I have a not-so-great room in which I'm recording...
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The key phrase in your question is "may be better". The two choices that most engineers strive for are "more accuracy" or "more flattering". Which is "best" for a particular application is up to the artist, the engineer, or the producer.

There are many places where you choose "flattering" over "accuracy"; vocals, for example.
 
While bgavin's Recorderman Method sounds very interesting, I would like to throw in my two cents on overhead mics.

First of all, unless your overhead mics are a matched pair, you will NOT get a realistic kit sound from them. Note that I said "kit" sound rather than "cymbals".

Many engineers record individual drums (kick, snare, hat, each tom, cymbals, and even that cowbell) and then work later to make them sound natural. I consider a drum kit to be a big stereo instrument with many parts rather than many individual drums that somehow fit together. That means that my overheads are actually my most important mics.

Rather than point overheads outward towards cymbals and dropping low end (as I have seen engineers do), I mic from the outside IN and add low end.

DEPENDING ON YOUR POSITION, YOU WILL PROBABLY HAVE TO FLIP THE PHASE OF YOUR OVERHEAD MICS IN RELATION TO YOUR OTHER DRUM MICS IN ORDER TO HEAR THE TRUE BOTTOM.

The great Rob Fraboni showed me this perspective to mic-ing drums 18 years ago, and I have never turned back since.

-Bruce Miller
Gold/Plat/Grammy Mixer

(* more tips and "Starving Artist Mix Special" at http://BruceAMiller.us *)
 
BruceAMiller said:
While bgavin's Recorderman Method sounds very interesting, I would like to throw in my two cents on overhead mics.

First of all, unless your overhead mics are a matched pair, you will NOT get a realistic kit sound from them. Note that I said "kit" sound rather than "cymbals".

Many engineers record individual drums (kick, snare, hat, each tom, cymbals, and even that cowbell) and then work later to make them sound natural. I consider a drum kit to be a big stereo instrument with many parts rather than many individual drums that somehow fit together. That means that my overheads are actually my most important mics.

Rather than point overheads outward towards cymbals and dropping low end (as I have seen engineers do), I mic from the outside IN and add low end.

DEPENDING ON YOUR POSITION, YOU WILL PROBABLY HAVE TO FLIP THE PHASE OF YOUR OVERHEAD MICS IN RELATION TO YOUR OTHER DRUM MICS IN ORDER TO HEAR THE TRUE BOTTOM.

The great Rob Fraboni showed me this perspective to mic-ing drums 18 years ago, and I have never turned back since.

-Bruce Miller
Gold/Plat/Grammy Mixer

(* more tips and "Starving Artist Mix Special" at http://BruceAMiller.us *)
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thanks alot. this is really what i was looking for. i want a full kit sound from my overheads rather than just a cymbal track. i'll give this method a try.
 
Let me jump in with a bit of a comment about the rationale for matched pairs in stereo recording.

The rationale for needing stereo pairs is that as the instrument moves up the scale if one mic has an elevated response that the other mic does not then the musician will appear to move toward the more responsive mic when they play that note.

But drums usually just play one note. (Unless you are talking about something like tympani). They aren't going shift around as you move up or down the scale because you don't move up or down the scale! So if your left mic is a little more responsive to the primary frequency of your crash cymball then it will sound like your crash cymball is a few inches to the left of where it really is. But how the heck is the listener going to know that is not where your crash cymball really is?
 
Drums actually do play many notes. Many of the "better" drummers will actually TUNE their drums to the song.

You made a good point in saying that if a mic "favors" a frequency more than another (in an unmatched pair) and will throw off the stereo image.

Remember, this is all about creating believable ILLUSIONS. Perhaps the illusion you are looking for is not that of a "realistic" drum kit...in which case, go big! Drums can certainly have the same function in a song if their sound is unconventional!

By tracking drums as described a few posts above, I have the option of either starting with the overheads and making a natural jazzier sound or starting with the kick and snare for a more aggressive beat.

I have mixed several songs with the drums all on one side. In cases like that, overheads still can help your overall drum bottom but of course a consistent stereo image is not necessary.

-Bruce Miller
( more tips and "Starving Artist Special" at http://BruceAMiller.us )
 
Yes I know that drums can be tuned to a given pitch, but not in the middle of a song! The point is that the reason for needing exactly matched stereo pairs isn't as important for drums as it would be for say a string quartet being recorded by an XY pair.
 
Innovations said:
Yes I know that drums can be tuned to a given pitch, but not in the middle of a song! The point is that the reason for needing exactly matched stereo pairs isn't as important for drums as it would be for say a string quartet being recorded by an XY pair.
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Roto-toms are toms that can be tuned by just rotating them. Hideo Yamaki often rotates them to change the tuning of his drums in the middle of songs and even during drum fills.

Toms have different pitches, even if they are not changed during a song. Hitting toms differently (and even pushing the stick down after hitting the tom) can give a slightly different pitch.
Cymbals also have the capability to produce different pitches depending on how they are played.

I don't want to give the impression that I am splitting hairs.

Innovations, I respect your opinions...but I think that what you meant was that a mismatched pair on a part (even an important part) of an individual instrument is not as crucial as a matched pair that are the ONLY mics used to capture a performance....which I completely agree with.

Bruce Miller
http://BruceAMiller.us
 
Cool thread- I don't have anything to add, just wanted to chime in. Bruce, if you click on edit at the bottom of your posts, there is an option to delete. I think everyone here has multi-posted for the same reason you did :) .

Thanks everyone for the input.
 
boingoman said:
Cool thread- I don't have anything to add, just wanted to chime in. Bruce, if you click on edit at the bottom of your posts, there is an option to delete. I think everyone here has multi-posted for the same reason you did :) .

Thanks everyone for the input.
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yep. awesome input. this is really gonna help me out alot. i guess the biggest thing i learned was "try anything and choose with your ears cuz there's 5 million ways to do everything in recording."
 
Bruce, do you mean put the overheads on the audience side of the kit or do you mean that you point in and at the drums?
 
The mic locating technique was developed by Recorderman on Recording.Org.

I worked out the geometry of what he is doing, and found a simple jig (pvc pipe) works well as a visual aid for the process.

You can place the mics anywhere you want. There is no reason you cannot place two mics in front of the kit and use a long string loop to locate the center of the snare. The midpoint of the string loop forms a triangle with the two ends of the tee top where the string attaches and the mics are located.

The kick and snare are the two points to keep in the center of the image. The bottom of the tee locates the kick, and the center of the string loop locates the snare. A longer tee leg moves the mics farther from the kick. A longer string loop moves them farther from the snare.
 
BruceAMiller said:
Innovations, I respect your opinions...but I think that what you meant was that a mismatched pair on a part (even an important part) of an individual instrument is not as crucial as a matched pair that are the ONLY mics used to capture a performance....which I completely agree with.
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What I really meant was I didn't want people thinking "Oh I can't use my (Octava MC012, MXL 603, SP C4) for drum overheads because they aren't a matched pair!" Those are all fine drum overhead mics matched pair or not. Frankly if the only thing I was buying them for was drum overheads (but I would not normally buy a mic for just one purpose) then I would not spend the extra for a matched pair.
 
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