I'm probably through recommending small condensers for drum OH's

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Dot

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We played around in the studio the other day. We wanted to hear a bunch of mics on drum OH's. We ran an AKG D12 through a Manley SLAM! on kick and ran 15 or so mics through a Millennia HV-3D mic pre.

We only used a single mic on the OH positioned about 6' off the ground over the drummer's right foot. The conclusion of the session was that large condenser mics do such a better job of bringing out the entire kit.

The winners in order of preference where:

AKG 414 B-ULS picked this over the 414 TLII
Red5 Audio RV8 - very open and airy
Oktava MK-319 - excellent OH mic. Highly recommended. I think they're $99 now.
AT 4040 - another winner

Another mic I've heard on OH's that are great are Studio Projects B1

The AKG 451's we used made a good "cymbal" mic, but didn't pick up much detail from the kit and made the toms sound like paper.

The idea here is that most people in these forums are micing kits with less mics - which I actually recommend. Kick mic, snare mic and a pair of OH's are all you need in the way of mics for a great drum sound - as long as the kit and room sounds good and the drummer can play.

We later switched out the D12E kick drum mic with a Red5 Audio RVD1 - and everyone liked the RVD1 better.

Bottom line: If you're looking for OH mics, get a pair of large condensers. they pick up the entire kit much better than most small condensers. Of course, this is a generalization, but just don't assume that you need to get small condensers for OH's.

IMO, the clear hands down winner for a budget OH mic is the Oktava MK-319 and the Studio Projects B1 - both of which will run you less than $200 for a pair.

I'll be posting some sound clips of the drum OH sessions at some point.

_____________

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions
 
This is what i had kinda assumed already, and was suprised so many people suggested the SD condensers likethe MC012, but i havent heard em yet so who knows......I do like my b1 though 8) havent got to use it on drums yet heh
 
now dotty, don't jump to conclusions. It probably had more to do with the particular small diaphragm condensers you had as opposed to small diaphragm condensers in general. Now the nubmeister himself thinks neumann km184's are pretty lame which is a standard overhead mic. 414's are somewhat of an industry standard for overheads even though again I don't particularly care for those mics either. (except the old c12 capsule ones) I tend to use schoeps small diaphragms. Sometimes a single 4048 for a mono overhead. (that old school jazz kit sound) I rent c12's on occasion. I also have pzm's permamently mounted in my drum booth and on occasion I use them. In a nice sounding room I like earthworks omni small diaphgragms. cool trick is to tape down a pair of earthworks mics to a peice of plexiglass making shure you get the diaphragm very close to the surface, but not touching. what do you get? makeshift kick ass pzm's with good bass response! If you got your other drum components close-mic'd just bring 'em in for "meat". watch your phase though. Besides overheads I almost always have a large diaphragm condenser in front of the kit, maybe about 6' out to pick up an overall sound. My favorite latest technique is to have all the regular close-mic'd stuff, sd condensers in xy as overheads. A single large diaphgram (usually u67) out front to pick up an over-all sound but focused mostly on the kick. two earthworks "pzm"'s on the floor about 6 ft out and a single 4038 about 30' out to pick up an oveall mono sound. Usually I delay the 4038 through a delay line to be in phase with the pzm's and the large diaphragm.
 
Well, large diaphragm condenser mics will certainly add a unique flavor to the sound when used as overheads, as Dot says, but there are some problems and it really depends on the desired sound, the particular drums and cymbals used, and the effect you're going for.

Large diaphragm condenser mics have very ragged off axis response (because of their design) and that may be desirable or not, depending on the sound you want to achieve. Small diaphragm mics (as a general class) have a lot smoother and more even off axis response and paint a more accurate picture of the drums, which may or may not be a good thing. It really depends on the circumstances.

I don't think I would steer people away from using small diaphragm mics for large sound sources (such as drums) as a general rule. Large diaphragm mics impart their own flavor to anything they are being used to record. Whether that flavor is right for the sound is up to the user. Understanding when to use that flavor (and when NOT to use that flavor) is the key to good recording practices.

I would strongly advise that you think about what you're trying to achieve before switching over to large diaphragm mics for overheads.

I'm pretty sure Dot isn't saying that the new Studio Project small diaphragm mics would sound bad if used as drum overheads, for example. Or not as good as the SP large diaphragm mics.
 
How about a nice pair of SM81's on Overheads?

Sounds good to me.
 
We regularly use the Shure SM-81s as overheads. We have the older ones which seem to be a lot smoother than the newer version.

In support of Dot's position, we also use our Sony C38 and another large diaphragm mic as drum overheads from time to time.
 
Dot said:
Oktava MK-319 - excellent OH mic. Highly recommended. I think they're $99 now.
Click to expand...

I've wanted to give that one a try for some time now. I've been looking to try a darker mic, because it always seems like I'm getting too much hat when using (cardioid) SDCs. Can I assume the 319 tames some of the cymbal harshness?

In all fairness, Dot, I think you may have overlooked the merits of the medium-diaphragm condenser as overheads. Try a Shure ksm32 sometime and tell me what you think. :D
 
Dot said:
... Bottom line: If you're looking for OH mics, get a pair of large condensers. they pick up the entire kit much better than most small condensers....
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what "pick up the entire kit much better" means. Three possibilities spring to mind:

- They pick up the entire kit better because they pick up a wider frequency range without attenuating any frequency. Of course, every particular model of mic is different, but if one were to generalize, I think small diaphragm mics, as a class, have more even frequency response than large (particularly off-axis). It's sort of inherent in the physical characteristics of the mics. A note: how big are the diaphragms of measurement mics?

- They pick up the entire kit better in a physical sense, i.e. their patterns more precisely fit the pattern that "picks up the entire kit" (which isn't necessarily a wider pattern, I suppose). But: I wouldn't have thought that there's a difference between the patterns of small diaphragm mics (as a group) and large diaphragm mics (as a group).

- Something more subtle and less directly reduced to a measurable characteristic (kind of like when audiophiles talk about "soundstage"). In which case, I guess the original poster's statement isn't really susceptible to discussion: it stands on its own and means whatever he thinks it means.
 
I use MC012's as overheads, and they get everything slamming except for the kick - but since I always use a dedicated kick mic it's not a problem.

The real issue is, like in real estate: location, location, location.

Ever since I switched to Recorderman's OH postioning method I've been extremely happy with my drum sounds, in spite of a less than ideal room (8' ceilings).

Here is Recorderman's own description:

1. Place the "Left" overhead mic directly over the center of the snare at the height of two drum sticks-held end-to-end(from the center of the snare, straight up, to the capsule of the mic).
2. Next; take the drum sticks (still held end-to-end) from the center of the snare over to above your ( i.e." the drummers") right shoulder and place your "right" overhead mic here.
3. Fine tune the placement by using a mic cable and measurinb the distance from the center of the Kick to each of these mics is also equidistant from the kick and snare.
4. listen with headphones and have the drummer lightly hit his kick drum, and adjust the "right" mics angle until the kick is in the middle of your "image".

What this has done is:
1. Place the snare & the kick in the center when you pan these mics hard left and right.
2. Place the overheads in a position which is in-phase with the kick,snare and overheads.
3. balanced the over heads so that the Rack and floor Toms (as well as all cymbals) are correctly balanced.

this is actually a great "picture" of the kit at this point. maybe a hair of Top end (depending on what mics your using), and a Kick mic. BUT whatever you add (snare mics, toms, etc) you'll now be inphase. This also makes your snare & toms louder in relation to the cymbals & is more of a true OH mic set-up (Not just "cymbal" mic's) It may look weird but try it...it truelly ROCKS
 
Sorry DOT, but I'm with Harvey regarding the SM-81's as overheads.

Also, ANYONE looking at the MK-319 needs to realize that they're VERY inconsistent from mic to mic, and generally reproduce very little high frequency energy.

I found this out myself two months ago; I spent an afternoon at GC, auditioning many 319s. About 25% of the mics were so poorly made that the XLR connector wouldn't even connect to the mic (the connector opening was undersized).

I bought a pair; took them home; tried them out individually on two vocalists, and also flew them over a Mapex drum kit with new heads. VERY dark (as in DULL... no highs). Also VERY muddy, narrow-sounding, unfocused and noisey. I took the 319's back to GC, and went back to my SM-81's.

As a postscript, I've also purchased a pair of SP B1s (couldn't resist the price), and I've got to say the B1s are WAY more usable than the 319s I had for a day. That's my 2 cents.
 
I've done A-B tests in which the MK-319 were apart. It did not have a chance to for example the ADK A51 which also is a low price mic. The MK-319 is very dark and "muddy" sounding in my ears.

The drum setup told by littledog is used by me on these recordings with the modification of a snare mic VERY low in the mix.

OH's: ADK A51's
Kick: AKG D112 about 25-30 cm outside placed to the center
Snare: Audio Technica AT-something dynamic (always forget the number. It can('t) barely be heard, could have been without it.

The link with full mp3's:

www.hagen.nu
-->Free downloads
-----> Songs 1, 2, 4 right from the top of the page

I think it's a great setup for drums!!!

Dot,
Will we see a session with OH's soon?

Hans
 
littledog said:
Ever since I switched to Recorderman's OH postioning method I've been extremely happy with my drum sounds, in spite of a less than ideal room (8' ceilings).[/i]
Click to expand...

I've found this method to be ideal . . . provided, or course, any one of the following:

a) You like the hi-hat.

b) You want the hi-hat to be the central focus of your mix and/or your life.

c) You live, eat, sleep, and breathe hi-hats and want to be a hi-hat and perhaps you were a hi-hat in a former life.
 
chessrock said:
I've found this method to be ideal . . . provided, or course, any one of the following:

a) You like the hi-hat.

b) You want the hi-hat to be the central focus of your mix and/or your life.

c) You live, eat, sleep, and breathe hi-hats and want to be a hi-hat and perhaps you were a hi-hat in a former life.
Click to expand...

I'm not doubting the veracity of your results, but mine have been completely different. I hardly have an overabundance of hi-hat lust, and i have had no problems with too much hat the way i position my mics. also, a number of engineers whom I highly respect who have used this method have never expressed similar complaints. perhaps we are not doing exactly the same thing?

but your post was amusing anyway, even if it doesn't correspond to my reality...:D
 
Agree with littledog. This setup brings a very natural and living sound easy to work with together with the other instruments. The hihat is not to loud for me. The problem can be the snare.

But, of course, every style has its own sound.

Hans
 
hrn said:
The problem can be the snare.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reminding me. I'll edit my rant. :D The recorderman method may be right for you if any of the following apply:

a) You like snares and hi-hats

b) You would like snares and/or hi-hats to run for president.

c) If you had your choice between Halle Berry, Brooke Burke, or Salma Hayek, you would take a snare and a hi-hat.
 
well, we're getting closer.

how about if we amend it to:

1) you like drum kits

2) you think good sounding drum kits are essential to most musical styles

3) given a choice of halle berry, brooke burke, or salma hayek, you'd play them the great drum sounds you got using this method. All three would be so swept away by your kicking drum sound that they'd agree to do a ménage-a-quatre with you right on the spot.

works for me...
 
littledog said:

3) given a choice of halle berry, brooke burke, or salma hayek, you'd play them the great drum sounds you got using this method. All three would be so swept away by your kicking drum sound that they'd agree to do a ménage-a-quatre with you right on the spot.

works for me...
Click to expand...
I gotta read this thread again from the top.
 
littledog said:
All three would be so swept away by your (overly present hi-hat) sound that they'd agree to do a ménage-a-quatre with you right on the spot.
Click to expand...

I can live with that.
 
littledog said:

Here is Recorderman's own description:

1. Place the "Left" overhead mic directly over the center of the snare at the height of two drum sticks-held end-to-end(from the center of the snare, straight up, to the capsule of the mic).
2. Next; take the drum sticks (still held end-to-end) from the center of the snare over to above your ( i.e." the drummers") right shoulder and place your "right" overhead mic here.
3. Fine tune the placement by using a mic cable and measurinb the distance from the center of the Kick to each of these mics is also equidistant from the kick and snare.
4. listen with headphones and have the drummer lightly hit his kick drum, and adjust the "right" mics angle until the kick is in the middle of your "image".

What this has done is:
1. Place the snare & the kick in the center when you pan these mics hard left and right.
2. Place the overheads in a position which is in-phase with the kick,snare and overheads.
3. balanced the over heads so that the Rack and floor Toms (as well as all cymbals) are correctly balanced.

this is actually a great "picture" of the kit at this point. maybe a hair of Top end (depending on what mics your using), and a Kick mic. BUT whatever you add (snare mics, toms, etc) you'll now be inphase. This also makes your snare & toms louder in relation to the cymbals & is more of a true OH mic set-up (Not just "cymbal" mic's) It may look weird but try it...it truelly ROCKS
Click to expand...

How are the OHs supposed to be pointed? Straight down? I know it says 'angle' them along with the kick drum, but angle them from where? Pointing down? Pointing at the cymbals? Toms?

Also, where is the snare OH supposed to be pointing? Straight down at the snare?

Or are they both supposed to be angled at the kick drum in a V and then the right one is supposed to be adjusted?

I'm so confused!
 
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