I have a question on where to put the desk...

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scottboyher

scottboyher

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I am building a basement studio (pic to come) that is 17'x11'.

Where would I best place the mixing desk and monitors:

On the end (short wall) with lots of space behind me or on a long wall with only about 5 to 6 feet behind me?

I will have a bunch more questions but I need to get some pic's up so you can see the situation..

Thanks!
 
I would agree with C7 if your room is mainly untreated. But most control rooms seem to have the board up against the long wall.

If you are doing panel absorbers and everything then you can put it on either wall. If you are just doing some basic absorption with 703 then I would put it on the short wall.
 
I will be doing very little treatment if any. I will try to get you a pic of the room this weekend so you can see for yourself..

Thanks!
 
I'm sorry, but there is NO good ACOUSTIC reason to have your desk on the long wall. What you want is the most "air" BEHIND you that you can get, and if that gives you less than about 11-12 feet from the back of your head to the rear wall you will STILL need to absorb the rear wall instead of diffusing it.

Any less distance than 11-12 feet will cause the reflections off the rear wall to arrive at your ears in less than 25 milliseconds, and that will cause phase cancellations in random frequencies (comb filtering) - this is NOT good, because it smears the stereo imaging and in severe cases you will think you have a flanger connected into your stereo buss every time you move your head.

The desk needs to go on the short wall, the speakers need to go in an equilateral triangle that is CENTERED left to right with two of the points of the triangle being the center of the speaker baffles and the THIRD point of the triangle immediately BEHIND your head. The speaker baffles should be close to perpendicular to the sides of the triangle, or about 30 degrees inward from parallel to the front (short) wall. Speaker elements (woofer and tweeter) should NOT be horizontal to each other, because this can cause MORE phase cancellations as you move your head from side to side. (This is much more likely than you moving your head up and down)

Speakers should NOT be exactly equidistant from ceiling and floor, nor should they be at exact fractions of the room's width from left to right. (not at 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, etc, of the total width of the room) - this would place them in a node or anti-node of the room's natural resonant frequencies which are caused by the dimensions, so the response would be more uneven.

Your mix position (you, speakers, room, and any gear) should be as close to perfectly symmetrical as you can get it. Imbalances in this can cause you to make bad panning decisions, as well as affecting the response of speakers differently from left to right.

Generally, the speakers should be a couple of feet from the front wall and 3-4 feet from side walls (in this case) - you will still, after all this, need to move your head (and in some cases, speakers) front to back to evaluate the sound quality while playing CD's you're familiar with - there are complex response patterns in any room that are usually easier to fine-tune by trial and error than they are by math alone.

Keep in mind that, if someone gives you an answer without a reason it may be because they don't know (or, they may just be in a hurry)

If you have no choice but to orient your room the SHORT way, (due to things like doors, etc) you'll need even MORE acoustic treatment on walls to kill the early reflections off your rear wall. This will usually deaden the room more than you want, so avoid it if you possibly can... Steve
 
Steve,

> What you want is the most "air" BEHIND you that you can get, and if that gives you less than about 11-12 feet from the back of your head to the rear wall you will STILL need to absorb the rear wall instead of diffusing it ... Any less distance than 11-12 feet will cause the reflections off the rear wall to arrive at your ears in less than 25 milliseconds ... this is NOT good, because it smears the stereo imaging <

Excellent! I am printing that, framing it, and putting it on my wall. Please repeat that as often as needed, here and elsewhere.

The only thing I question - not challenge! - among that wealth of good advice is this comment:

> Generally, the speakers should be a couple of feet from the front wall <

I know this is a complex subject, and no one spacing can solve all problems, but I always thought putting speakers flat against the wall was best. Since all low frequency problems are caused by the time difference between direct and reflected waves, it seems to me that flat against the wall yields the shortest time difference between the direct sound from the front of the speaker and the rear radiation after bouncing off the wall. Am I missing something important?

--Ethan
 
Ethan, you're right - it IS a very complex subject. There is no SINGLE right way to place speakers in a room, which is why I mentioned moving things longitudinally while LISTENING.

If you look at the various offerings in the realm of nearfield monitoring, you'll notice that some of the cabinets have radiused front baffles while others are square-cut - this affects the degree of diffraction around the corners of the speakers. Radiused edges diffuse the diffracted sound somewhat, but it's still there. When you place the speakers up against the front wall, this diffracted sound reaches your ears quicker and so will affect higher frequencies' phase relationship between direct and diffracted/reflected sound.

At the upper end of audibility, wavelengths are in the order of 1/2 inch, so you can see just how little difference in positioning it takes to cancel some highs while adding others (comb filtering)

The further you place speakers from the front wall, the less HF phase distortion, but at the same time longer wavelengths will suffer the same fate.

Then, we have the proximity effect - speakers too close to boundaries will give a bass boost (which USUALLY is not desirable, but in the case of small woofers sometimes works to advantage)

Add to that the fact that it's nearly impossible to design a 2-way speaker with larger than 6" woofer that doesn't have a "hole in the middle" , and we're left with yet another decision(s) - do we need a sub, do we need one or two, stereo or mono, where does it(they) go, where do they cross over, how to calibrate, ad nauseum...

Another typical problem is reflections from the front wall/rear of console, especially if it's a big console with a closed rear pedestal.

The only way I know of to get ALL these potential problems under control (except for maybe the sub question), is to heavily absorb the front wall, and if necessary the rear of the console area, and if using nearfields be VERY aware of early reflections.

These can come from the console surface (very common) from the shelf the speakers are sitting on (unless your shelf is set up so that the speaker sits at the very front, with the front edge angled the same as the speaker), from the sides of Video monitors, especially CRT's, from the ceiling, (usually NOT the floor) from the side walls (absorption at LEAST where these reflections occur) -

Basically, if you have a helper hold a mirror flat against any and all surfaces around you, anywhere you can sit at the mix position and see EITHER speaker in the mirror, that's where absorption should be placed.

All the comments above would apply to any rectangular room - if you're lucky enough to have dedicated space and want to do some building, you can build a "shell" around your mix area with side walls, front wall and false ceiling all angled so that ANY but direct sound gets re-directed AWAY from the mix position and to the rear wall, in which case see my EARLIER post regarding distance to rear wall... This type of construction is referred to as RFZ, or Reflection Free Zone, design.

As if all this weren't enough, lately I've seen reports of "The next big thing" (maybe), called ESS - stands for Early Sound Scattering, where all those hard front surfaces in a RFZ room are replaced with diffusors (prime #'s, quadratics mostly) - the claim is that mixes transport to different rooms much better, yada yada... So far, the only examples are in England and I'm NOT, so I can't comment on any of the claims yet.

Before I get to the decision point on my own new 2100 sf facility (16-foot + ceilings, I'm drooling already)(likely a couple of years) I hope to either travel to England (Lisa Stansfield's project studio, for one) or find someone in the US that's done it, so I'll know if it's something I want to opt for. At first glance, it seems like you could build reversible panels for those front areas with one side hard and the reverse being a diffusor. Hmmm...

Complex??? We don' NEED no steenking COMPLEX...:=) Steve
 
As I mentioned before, I am just about to move into my new house and have been pondering the same thing. I was going to to have my desk and monitors facing the far (narrow) wall so that I will have lots of space behind but it's interesting to hear your comments. I have a room that is 15 by 12, pretty small for a studio but at least I have the whole room permanently!
 
Dave, you still should orient your room facing the long way but here's a heads-up - assuming your ceiling is at 8 feet, you will have coincident axial modes that will color the sound somewhat and may require extra absorption. Hanging a full sheet of plywood near the ceiling, that has been faced with rigid fiberglas (Knauf or Owens Corning) at an angle that would reflect to the REAR of the room, would help minimise the problem.

I've attached a shot of a spreadsheet I wrote years ago, with your room dimensions entered (I assumed 8 foot ceiling) - good things are not having any two bars the same height, nor too far apart (at least 4-5 hZ, not more than 20-25 hZ) - Once you get above about 300 hZ, it's moot. As you can see, there could be problems at 140, 190, and 280 hZ - 2 of those three are related to ceiling height as compared to the other dimensions, and so would be helped by the plywood "cloud" I mentioned... Steve

The pic is as large as allowed, you will have to stretch it in paint to about 400% - it gets blurry, but is still usable (sort of)
 

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Thanks very much for that, it will take me a while to get my head round it though! I cant really read the left to right scale but I think i get the jist of it. My ceiling is pretty much 8ft, maybe slightly more so you are spot on! Im sure i will have some questions for you soon!

I have learnt so much in the last two years, mainly thanks to people like yourself but I still have a long way to go before I am competent about even basic acoustics!
 
scottboyher said:
I will be doing very little treatment if any. I will try to get you a pic of the room this weekend so you can see for yourself..

Thanks!

Untreated, well, then you want the console against the short wall, so you have the vast majority of "air" behind you.

If this is the case, then if you want to do minimal treating, treat above the console as well as the short wall behind the console.

Another option is to move the console table about a 1' from the wall, so the monitors aren't against the wall either. Sometimes you have to move the monitors forward and back, or at slight angles to the short wall for the best sound, and this is very time consuming. But, its free :)
 
Thanks for the replies guys! STEVE! Excellent response. I have learned alot from your post and I am beginning to get the picture..


Thanks alot everyone!
 
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