Michael Jones
New member
Michael Jones
New member
Michael Jones
New member
Michael Jones
New member
That's all for now.
I could show you the dirt and grime, and the dwindling staging areas, but, you don't need to see that!
Tomorrow's another day though.
I could show you the dirt and grime, and the dwindling staging areas, but, you don't need to see that!
Tomorrow's another day though.
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Looking great Michael. Man do I wish I was building new. It's all I can do to get my outbuildings propped up and stabilized for the winter. Talk about dirt and grime. Had to get down in it to repair the posts that support the shed. It cantilevers out over a STEEP hill with a creek 75' below. Man was it scary getting under this old piece of shit. Heres a couple of pics. Now this is DIRT and GRIME
Not that you don't have your own. Anyway, keep those pics coming. Say, I thought you were using RC on staggered studs with 2 layers of rock. Hmmmm, must have confused you with someone else. Wouldn't be the first time. BTW, everyone said tear this down. HOW? It was ready to fall in the canyon, and then I'd NEVER get it torn down. So I jacked it up and fixed it. Now I can at least use it for storage for the winter. I just hate destroying stuff that cost money to rebuild. I'll trick it out next springs. Don't laugh. Ha!fitZ
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CoolCat
Well-known member
studioville
looks huge...
i can't wait till you start with the rooms...wall acoustic type work.
Michael Jones said:
looks huge...
i can't wait till you start with the rooms...wall acoustic type work.
Michael Jones
New member
Rick - RC on staggered studs? Kind of unnecessary, I think. Like wearing a belt AND suspenders.
COOLCAT - That part's comming.
COOLCAT - That part's comming.
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Why? The only difference between a staggered wall and a seperate wall is a staggered walls two wall planes share a top and bottom plate. And people use RC on seperate walls all the time. Whats the difference? Does a seperate wall act any different?
fitZ
Michael Jones
New member
Well, the way I understand it, The RC lifts the wall board off of the stud, minimizing the connection from the outside of the wall to the inside of the wall.
The staggered stud wall accomplishes the same thing, only better because there's no connection to the inside stud and the outside wall.
Both systems share a common base and top plate, that's true, but the base plate, bolted down to concrete, with rubber underneath it, doesn't resonate to a detriment of the wall system.
There's no such thing as complete isolation, but a staggered stud wall pretty much does the same thing as RC, with the added benefit of a thicker wall, and more air space.
The staggered stud wall accomplishes the same thing, only better because there's no connection to the inside stud and the outside wall.
Both systems share a common base and top plate, that's true, but the base plate, bolted down to concrete, with rubber underneath it, doesn't resonate to a detriment of the wall system.
There's no such thing as complete isolation, but a staggered stud wall pretty much does the same thing as RC, with the added benefit of a thicker wall, and more air space.
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Is this a bomb shelter too?(just kidding)
Hmmmm, ok. Well, I'm no expert, so good luck with this. I bet it is really solid. Your putting another layer of rock over the OSB? Man, solid is an understatement So how are you decoupling the ceiling? Do the scissor truss' act like staggered studs?
fitZ
Hmmmm, ok. Well, I'm no expert, so good luck with this. I bet it is really solid. Your putting another layer of rock over the OSB? Man, solid is an understatement
So how are you decoupling the ceiling? Do the scissor truss' act like staggered studs? fitZ
Michael Jones
New member
Re: Is this a bomb shelter too?(just kidding)
Well, I'm no expert either, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
The SAE site shows a triple layer, staggered stud wall system as having an STC of 60 or so. That's my target. But I'll tell you what: There's nothing like having to 'rock a wall 3 times!
Each room in the studio has the walls going up to the ceiling, so from wall to wall, the ceiling is decoupled. (The drywall ends at the wall, it doesn't go through the wall into the next room)
The wallboard for the ceiling will be 2 layers on RC.
RICK FITZPATRICK said:Hmmmm, ok. Well, I'm no expert, so good luck with this. I bet it is really solid. Your putting another layer of rock over the OSB? Man, solid is an understatement
fitZ
Well, I'm no expert either, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
The SAE site shows a triple layer, staggered stud wall system as having an STC of 60 or so. That's my target. But I'll tell you what: There's nothing like having to 'rock a wall 3 times!
Each room in the studio has the walls going up to the ceiling, so from wall to wall, the ceiling is decoupled. (The drywall ends at the wall, it doesn't go through the wall into the next room)
The wallboard for the ceiling will be 2 layers on RC.
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Hi Michael, well I knew that you had mentioned RC somewhere. My memory is getting worse by the day. Ha! And yea, I bet 3 layers of rock will make you crazy for sure. Don't get hurt. I almost fell down the canyon the other day. Fortunately there was a tree that stopped me after 15 ft but scared the hell out of me. Don't need an accident in the middle of a project. Makes for BIG delays. Or death in my case. Which is a permenant delay. Whew!
fitZ
My memory is getting worse by the day. Ha! And yea, I bet 3 layers of rock will make you crazy for sure. Don't get hurt. I almost fell down the canyon the other day. Fortunately there was a tree that stopped me after 15 ft but scared the hell out of me. Don't need an accident in the middle of a project. Makes for BIG delays. Or death in my case. Which is a permenant delay. Whew!fitZ
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
Yeah, Fitz - remember, "Death is Nature's Way of Telling You to Slow Down..."
Seriously, man, do like us industrial types do (by MANDATE) and TIE YOURSELF OFF - Not only does a 75 foot fall tend to ruin your whole day (and any future ones) but we'd be REALLY PISSED if we were deprived of your stories... Steve
Seriously, man, do like us industrial types do (by MANDATE) and TIE YOURSELF OFF - Not only does a 75 foot fall tend to ruin your whole day (and any future ones) but we'd be REALLY PISSED if we were deprived of your stories... Steve
Dethska
Not a Mod
Yeah, no fair dying and not finishing your giant project house/ studio (and the stories that go along with). That would be very inconsiderate.
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
Michael, while I agree that those STC ratings on the SAE site are tested designs, it's also true that they are several years old and newer methods/thinking exist.
One example - STC completely ignores frequencies below 125 hZ, so won't tell you the whole story of a given wall's music performance. MTC, which apparently is NEVER going to catch on from what I see, still doesn't completely cover the spectrum but apparently SHIFTS it to at least partially account for a couple more octaves. Eric Desart has patiently tried to explain this to me, but I've yet to find the time to do all the research he's so generously pointed me toward. Soon, I hope...
If you look at the SAE STC charts, you'll see that there are even better walls than the staggered stud, common plate version and that the best ones, even with steel studs, STILL use RC.
My research so far indicates that some of the things that improve Transmission Loss at lower frequencies are stiffness of the partition, near total independence of the two leaves, and dissimilar panels within a leaf. These are in addition to the obvious one, MASS.
There are a couple of reasons that, if you're not already too far along, I would recommend using 3 different thicknesses of rock on your inner wall leaves, AND using RC on ONE side of your frames, even if they are TOTALLY separate frames -
The first reason is that the dissimilar panel weights will give three different Coincidence Dips around the 2-4 kHz range, making those frequencies less likely to penetrate, and the three different resonant frequencies will mean that lower (somewhere around 40-60 hZ ) sounds will also have a tougher time penetrating.
The second reason (Pro-RC) is this: If you mount three layers of ANY thickness rock directly onto studs, and if you use the simpler method of just staggering fasteners but still penetrating ALL THREE layers of rock with screws going INTO the studs, you will, from all I've found so far, lose up to 8-9 dB of isolation just due to flanking noise through those fasteners and into the stud. This is actually in the case of a non-staggered wall, and would be reduced somewhat by your staggered stud approach, but because of the common plates it would still be responsible for maybe 4-5 dB loss. That's equivalent to another layer of rock.
By using RC on your inner studs, you can mount each layer to the RC (staggered screw pattern, of course) with screws. The RC itself is still resiliently coupled to the studs, so even though the flanking still happens, it mostly STOPS at the RC, and is further dissipated by your in-wall insulation batts.
Sjoko commented several months back that one of the best walls he'd ever done was with three different layer thicknesses, so there's at least one example of this theory being real.
Another thing to consider is this: All these LAB tests, when actually measured in the field, LOSE anywhere from 3 to 8-9 dB due to variables creeping in - flanking, caulking, etc - so if you want 60 dB it's best to build for 70, and you'll probably get at least 62.
Yet another factor - The STC vs. MTC thing. You can build two different designed walls that BOTH have been tested for 60 dB, and yet the performance at 60 or 30 hZ may be 8-10 dB DIFFERENT simply because STC is weighted for 500 hZ. So basically, STC doesn't tell you enough to decide on a particular wall construction if you don't want low frequency leakage.
We're all learning here, me included - I'll always try to keep you as informed as I can when I learn more, and hopefully it will either be in time if you want to change, or at least relatively insignificant. However, if you're shooting for 60 dB and expect that to mean good low frequency isolation, I'd strongly recommend you give this some careful thought - the two main things I covered above appear NOT to be insignificant... Steve
One example - STC completely ignores frequencies below 125 hZ, so won't tell you the whole story of a given wall's music performance. MTC, which apparently is NEVER going to catch on from what I see, still doesn't completely cover the spectrum but apparently SHIFTS it to at least partially account for a couple more octaves. Eric Desart has patiently tried to explain this to me, but I've yet to find the time to do all the research he's so generously pointed me toward. Soon, I hope...
If you look at the SAE STC charts, you'll see that there are even better walls than the staggered stud, common plate version and that the best ones, even with steel studs, STILL use RC.
My research so far indicates that some of the things that improve Transmission Loss at lower frequencies are stiffness of the partition, near total independence of the two leaves, and dissimilar panels within a leaf. These are in addition to the obvious one, MASS.
There are a couple of reasons that, if you're not already too far along, I would recommend using 3 different thicknesses of rock on your inner wall leaves, AND using RC on ONE side of your frames, even if they are TOTALLY separate frames -
The first reason is that the dissimilar panel weights will give three different Coincidence Dips around the 2-4 kHz range, making those frequencies less likely to penetrate, and the three different resonant frequencies will mean that lower (somewhere around 40-60 hZ ) sounds will also have a tougher time penetrating.
The second reason (Pro-RC) is this: If you mount three layers of ANY thickness rock directly onto studs, and if you use the simpler method of just staggering fasteners but still penetrating ALL THREE layers of rock with screws going INTO the studs, you will, from all I've found so far, lose up to 8-9 dB of isolation just due to flanking noise through those fasteners and into the stud. This is actually in the case of a non-staggered wall, and would be reduced somewhat by your staggered stud approach, but because of the common plates it would still be responsible for maybe 4-5 dB loss. That's equivalent to another layer of rock.
By using RC on your inner studs, you can mount each layer to the RC (staggered screw pattern, of course) with screws. The RC itself is still resiliently coupled to the studs, so even though the flanking still happens, it mostly STOPS at the RC, and is further dissipated by your in-wall insulation batts.
Sjoko commented several months back that one of the best walls he'd ever done was with three different layer thicknesses, so there's at least one example of this theory being real.
Another thing to consider is this: All these LAB tests, when actually measured in the field, LOSE anywhere from 3 to 8-9 dB due to variables creeping in - flanking, caulking, etc - so if you want 60 dB it's best to build for 70, and you'll probably get at least 62.
Yet another factor - The STC vs. MTC thing. You can build two different designed walls that BOTH have been tested for 60 dB, and yet the performance at 60 or 30 hZ may be 8-10 dB DIFFERENT simply because STC is weighted for 500 hZ. So basically, STC doesn't tell you enough to decide on a particular wall construction if you don't want low frequency leakage.
We're all learning here, me included - I'll always try to keep you as informed as I can when I learn more, and hopefully it will either be in time if you want to change, or at least relatively insignificant. However, if you're shooting for 60 dB and expect that to mean good low frequency isolation, I'd strongly recommend you give this some careful thought - the two main things I covered above appear NOT to be insignificant... Steve
VSpaceBoy
..loading
Steve..... you rock!
Everytime I read your posts I take something away.
Everytime I read your posts I take something away.
Michael Jones
New member
Steve, thanks again for all the useful information.
When I say my target is an STC of 60, I don't expect to achieve 60dB of noise reduction; I know thats a theoretical number, achieved under optimum conditions.
My main areas of concern are the following:
The Control Room
This room is, as near as I can get it, in complete isolation.
It shares no common walls with any part of the structure, and no common walls with any other room.
It does, however, share a common slab with the rest of the structure.
If my exterior walls achieve even 50 dB of noise reduction, and I get another 50 from the CR itself, I should be creeping towards that target of 60.
But those are the walls. There's weak points in every design: Doors.
If I have 2 sliders that will achieve 45 dB of noise reduction each, then I'll never approach that target of 60.
The Drum Room
Obviously low frequency response is going to be the culprit here.
Again, no common walls with the other rooms, but unless you're building a bank vault, some noise is going to escape the structure.
I'm not too worried about sound escaping the structure, I just don't want too much bleed into the live room.
Double walls with a varying 8" - 12" of separation and the Rockwool-triple layer system is my solution.
Once more; double sliders - the weak point.
The Mechanical Room
I'll have, I guess what's refered to as a split system for HVAC; The A/C compressor is outside, and the air handler is inside.
Double walls, and a separate ceiling is my solution here.
Of course my bids are for over-sized ducting, no common ducts from room to room, a 2 speed 'squirrel cage" fan system, and rigid ducts for the returns.
The 2 speed fan allows you to "turn it down" with out turning it off, if need be. It seemed like a good solution from a local company experienced in studio HVAC construction.
Those are the major areas of concern for me.
Again, I'm not too worried about sound escaping.
I don't live by an airport or a highway, but I want a quiet interior for recording and a quieter one for mixing.
My main market strategy is going to be classical music, and jazz.
I expect, and hope, to do the odd rock-metal band, but that's NOT my market focus.
Additionally, I've had some success (locally) at composing for independent film, and hope to build on that.
Moreover, none of the construction techniques I have seen deal with the fact that an attic space must be vented to the outside, and don't discuss the fact that the eaves have gaping vents in them! So much for the outside walls!
I'm just gladfind a happy medium between what building codes allow, and what recording studios require.
In the end, when its all said and done, it'll be 1000 times better than what I have now!
When I say my target is an STC of 60, I don't expect to achieve 60dB of noise reduction; I know thats a theoretical number, achieved under optimum conditions.
My main areas of concern are the following:
The Control Room
This room is, as near as I can get it, in complete isolation.
It shares no common walls with any part of the structure, and no common walls with any other room.
It does, however, share a common slab with the rest of the structure.
If my exterior walls achieve even 50 dB of noise reduction, and I get another 50 from the CR itself, I should be creeping towards that target of 60.
But those are the walls. There's weak points in every design: Doors.
If I have 2 sliders that will achieve 45 dB of noise reduction each, then I'll never approach that target of 60.
The Drum Room
Obviously low frequency response is going to be the culprit here.
Again, no common walls with the other rooms, but unless you're building a bank vault, some noise is going to escape the structure.
I'm not too worried about sound escaping the structure, I just don't want too much bleed into the live room.
Double walls with a varying 8" - 12" of separation and the Rockwool-triple layer system is my solution.
Once more; double sliders - the weak point.
The Mechanical Room
I'll have, I guess what's refered to as a split system for HVAC; The A/C compressor is outside, and the air handler is inside.
Double walls, and a separate ceiling is my solution here.
Of course my bids are for over-sized ducting, no common ducts from room to room, a 2 speed 'squirrel cage" fan system, and rigid ducts for the returns.
The 2 speed fan allows you to "turn it down" with out turning it off, if need be. It seemed like a good solution from a local company experienced in studio HVAC construction.
Those are the major areas of concern for me.
Again, I'm not too worried about sound escaping.
I don't live by an airport or a highway, but I want a quiet interior for recording and a quieter one for mixing.
My main market strategy is going to be classical music, and jazz.
I expect, and hope, to do the odd rock-metal band, but that's NOT my market focus.
Additionally, I've had some success (locally) at composing for independent film, and hope to build on that.
Moreover, none of the construction techniques I have seen deal with the fact that an attic space must be vented to the outside, and don't discuss the fact that the eaves have gaping vents in them! So much for the outside walls!
I'm just gladfind a happy medium between what building codes allow, and what recording studios require.
In the end, when its all said and done, it'll be 1000 times better than what I have now!
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Hurrah!! Thats putting things into perspective Michael Steve, you blow my mind, plain and simple.
fitZ
Steve, you blow my mind, plain and simple.fitZ
Amped
New member
Mickael, Man, that looks great! Cant wait to see it in operation. What are your plans for acoustic treatments in the live room? In particular, the walls and ceiling.
Jim
Jim