how to tame bass notes that jump WAY out??

[Hi_Flyer]

OK, so my band has an upright bass, which first of all seems (at least to me) to be a rather hard instrument to record/mix/play, and on top of that my bass player doesn't have the best technique... So basically my problem is that when I'm trying to mix his bass, I'll end up getting a few notes that jump way out in volume, for example the G fretted on the low E string. How can I tame this and even everything out? What do you call it when that happens? Is that what is referred to as the instruments "fundamental tone" or something like that?

Typically I have been recording on cassette multi-track machines (Tascam 424 and Tascam 688) and transferring to n-Track to mix. Part of the problem is that the tracks don't sound great to begin with, and I think thats partially due to the fact that a cassette format just won't capture the low end. So to compensate I use compression & EQ plug-ins, as well as a plug-in called Baxxpander to boost the lows. It works OK, but I tend to end up with the problem described above...

Keep in mind I'm not mixing for any serious projects, I mix mainly song sketches and recordings of shows, but I still want to learn better techniques...

And I guess the appropriate follow-up question is what can I do to get a better sound to start with? It seems like I'm just not capturing the low frequencies, so would a DI box help? What about a cheap preamp?

sorry for long post!!

 

[kylen]

Does the bass man serve his purpose in the band - in other words is he holding down his end on rhythm section chores ? If he is then you can work on the recording technique, if he isn't capable then that's what you're gonna capture - you might need to bring somebody else in or wait till they learn more. You may have to bring someone else in to listen - some folks might be surprised to know that most band members have never really heard their own bands. Seems odd but true...You could stand back a ways and listen to your drummer and bass player lock in and get an idea from that possibly. You're not the drummer are you?

You've alluded to the technique issue - some of that can be fixed with recording tricks, except timing - without that it's curtains!

 

[Hi_Flyer]

I'm the guitar player. we've been playing together for about five years... he's not the best player, then again he's not the worst, and to be fair, I think his instrument is rather challenging to play...

Usually when we want to record "for real", we book time in a better studio, and in the controlled environment we get some good takes out of him. Playing live is different though.

When you're recording a set a bar, you can't relly spend alot of time getting good tones and mic placement, its more run & gun. But I usually record the bass direct, so its not like there's much to screw up, the problem seems to be that I'm just not getting the low end that SHOULD be there, in fact when I record electric bass it usually sounds better (maybe this part of my question should have been a seperate post in the "Recording" forum?).

I'm just trying to capture the sound as best as I can, and then once I get it, make it sound as good as I can in the mix. I'm actually getting better at shaping his bass tone so that some of his mistakes aren't as noticeable, but I still end up running into the problem where some tones get WAY LOUD, and I don't think that is due poor playing at all...

maybe I should try to post a clip?

 

[kylen]

maybe I should try to post a clip?

Clip worth thousand words! I'm not the best guy to give standup bass recording tips around here (not that that would stop me if I had an idea) but I am getting pretty good at shaping bass and subbass ranges of mixes and tracks if that's where it needs to be shaped.

For taming resonances and putting Oomph into bottomless cuts I like this DAW Voxengo VST rebalancing chain:

GlissEQ -> Soniformer MB comp -> LFMax -> LFPunch

 

[AGCurry]

Part of the problem is that the tracks don't sound great to begin with, and I think thats partially due to the fact that a cassette format just won't capture the low end.

Cassette formats do fine with lows; it's high freqs where they're deficient.

But anyway...

You say the problem is worse when going direct from his pickup.
What kind of pickup and preamp is he using? Assuming a piezo pickup, the preamp plays a big role in shaping the tone properly by buffering the impedance of the pickup - a piezo without a preamp will lack low end badly.

An upright bass is an unruly instrument. The pickup and how it's attached have a huge effect, and it's harder to get a balanced response than not. If the problem is worse when recording through the pickup, that's my guess as to where the problem lies.

 

[Massive Master]

Other than a hardware sidechain, I'd HIGHLY suggest Voxengo's Soniformer plug. It's absolutely written for that kind of stuff. Compression of specific frequencies or frequency ranges, by a specified amount, after a specific threshold has been crossed. I don't use it often, but there's nothing else like it when it's needed.

 

[mr.rich]

upright bass is the hardest instrument to get a good recorded capture of, mostly when is plucked. low string seem to mush under 250, if the person plays one note a little too hard you get a god awfull click, high notes seem to lack sustain and drop out of a mix. best results ive gotten were by combining a blue ball (which on all other things is possibly one of the worst mics ever,, i usually only choose it if i wanna give somthing a thin distant feel) and a rode nt2. the ball was placed near the f hole, the nt2 about a foot away from the bridge. ball gave the punch and nt2 provided the lows and slight ambiance.

but in regards to getting a constant dynamic from an already unbalanced source, id say comp the sucker till its flat. you will lose some of the energy and feel of the take but will have a flatter instrument in the mix.

 

[SonicAlbert]

I agree about using compression to tame the bass notes popping out. It will help even out the levels to whatever degree you need it done.

 

[daav]

Other than a hardware sidechain, I'd HIGHLY suggest Voxengo's Soniformer plug. It's absolutely written for that kind of stuff. Compression of specific frequencies or frequency ranges, by a specified amount, after a specific threshold has been crossed. I don't use it often, but there's nothing else like it when it's needed.

As a newbie to this, i am surprised this kind of thing doesn't get used all the time (or does it?).

Like with a vocal track, wouldn't it make sense to compress (hell, gate) everything outside of the normal human vocal frequency range to eliminate bleed thorugh or line noise or whatever might be out there, especially in a home recording situation?

Daav

 

[Hi_Flyer]

You say the problem is worse when going direct from his pickup.

its direct from his amp, although I'm not sure what kind of line out it is. I know there is an XLR out, so I think its balanced. Sometimes I use the 1/4" jack, it depends on which cable I have.

What kind of pickup and preamp is he using? Assuming a piezo pickup, the preamp plays a big role in shaping the tone properly by buffering the impedance of the pickup - a piezo without a preamp will lack low end badly.

its a Fishman pickup (not sure of the exact model) and a GK amp (again, not sure of the model), I dunno what kind of preamp, but he gets plenty of low end coming out of the amp though. There is some low end, I'm just not getting it to tape...

 

[Hi_Flyer]

Other than a hardware sidechain, I'd HIGHLY suggest Voxengo's Soniformer plug. It's absolutely written for that kind of stuff. Compression of specific frequencies or frequency ranges, by a specified amount, after a specific threshold has been crossed. I don't use it often, but there's nothing else like it when it's needed.

I am guessing that this plug-in, as well as some of the other plug-ins mentioned in this thread are not free-ware?

 

[AGCurry]

its direct from his amp, although I'm not sure what kind of line out it is. I know there is an XLR out, so I think its balanced. Sometimes I use the 1/4" jack, it depends on which cable I have.


its a Fishman pickup (not sure of the exact model) and a GK amp (again, not sure of the model), I dunno what kind of preamp, but he gets plenty of low end coming out of the amp though. There is some low end, I'm just not getting it to tape...

Okay, now we're getting somewhere!

Try taking the GK amp out of the chain, using a DI instead. Obviously, I'm not guaranteeing success, but it's one more thing to eliminate.

 

[Hi_Flyer]

upright bass is the hardest instrument to get a good recorded capture of, mostly when is plucked. low string seem to mush under 250, if the person plays one note a little too hard you get a god awfull click, high notes seem to lack sustain and drop out of a mix. best results ive gotten were by combining a blue ball (which on all other things is possibly one of the worst mics ever,, i usually only choose it if i wanna give somthing a thin distant feel) and a rode nt2. the ball was placed near the f hole, the nt2 about a foot away from the bridge. ball gave the punch and nt2 provided the lows and slight ambiance.

this may be good advice to keep in mind for the next time we're in the studio, but mainly I'm recording us in live settings, so this wouldn't be too practical. He plays slap-rockabilly style, so the string clicks/pops are actually desirable... What exactly do you mean "low strings seem to ,mush under 250"? Should I try pulling out everything below 250?

but in regards to getting a constant dynamic from an already unbalanced source, id say comp the sucker till its flat. you will lose some of the energy and feel of the take but will have a flatter instrument in the mix.

any specific comp settings you care to recommend as a starting point? I'm guessing high ratios like 11:1?

 

[Hi_Flyer]

thanks to all for the advice... I'm gonna try to get a clip up, but it might have to wait until the weekend.

 

[Hi_Flyer]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere!

Try taking the GK amp out of the chain, using a DI instead. Obviously, I'm not guaranteeing success, but it's one more thing to eliminate.

hmm... I wonder if his preamp has two outs? His bass definitely needs to be amplified if we're playing a show!!! Maybe I can get a Y cable to split the signal coming out of the preamp or something...

 

[Hi_Flyer]

Other than a hardware sidechain, I'd HIGHLY suggest Voxengo's Soniformer plug. It's absolutely written for that kind of stuff. Compression of specific frequencies or frequency ranges, by a specified amount, after a specific threshold has been crossed. I don't use it often, but there's nothing else like it when it's needed.

wait, isn't this just a multi-band compression plug-in?

 

[Farview]

A direct box has a pass through so he can still be hooked to the amp.

I'm wondering if, in your quest to give the bass more low end, you are boosting frequecies that are making your problem worse. Obviously this instrument has low end, but it won't compete with the latest Korn album.

What frequencies are you boosting? My guess would be around 100hz to 200hz. You might try an octave down (50hz to 100hz) it will give you beef without accentuating the resonance of the first harmonic.

 

[Hi_Flyer]

A direct box has a pass through so he can still be hooked to the amp.

I had a feeling I that I should be looking into one of these things.

I'm wondering if, in your quest to give the bass more low end, you are boosting frequecies that are making your problem worse. Obviously this instrument has low end, but it won't compete with the latest Korn album.

What frequencies are you boosting? My guess would be around 100hz to 200hz. You might try an octave down (50hz to 100hz) it will give you beef without accentuating the resonance of the first harmonic.

I was using this Baxxpander plug-in, I dunno exactly which frequencies it boosts. I'll try this too.

 

[Middleman]

Live, acoustic bass, rockabilly...hmm..

I would DI and push the 100-150 range which DIs are notorious for sucking the life out of.

I would still try to sneak a small condensor Hyper cardoid between the bridge and tailpiece and take it direct to the board. Duc tape is your friend here. Between those two, you'll get the slap and the low end.

The amp, well it's good for the people in the room to hear the bass but it can be doing a lot for the tone of an acoustic bass.

A compressor may not be needed if you go with the above method but if the instrument itself is kicking out wide transients on certain notes, you should run a compressor while tracking, watch your meters to see what the average vs peak response looks like and then set your compressor to either match the average or the difference between the average and peak if you want a livelier sound.

 

[kylen]

I was using this Baxxpander plug-in, I dunno exactly which frequencies it boosts...

I might be mis-understanding but here goes anyway. Are you saying you don't know exactly what the plugin adds in terms of specs or that you just can't exactly hear it or tell where in the spectrum it is adding stuff?

This is one of those time where you can clone your bass track - phase invert it 180 degrees and play it along with the non-inverted bass track. Now turn on Baxxpander and start tweaking it - now you hear what the plugin is adding. If you put Voxengo SPAN on the master bus you can see what part of the spectrum the plugin is adding sound too. Also if you can see it in SPAN but not hear it you have possibly have other troubles with monitoring for example...