How to get it loud and powerfull w/out much clipping??!!

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Roker1

Roker1

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Hi guys....I've just finished one of my little projects..I've mastered it with some compression and it sounds fine, but when i listen to a commercial CD it sounds a bit louder and waveform (when I grab it of a CD and get a wave file) is very fat and ends (tips) are touching tops and bottoms nearly all the time but it's not clipping...and sounds a lot more powerfull than my mix...What am i missing here...it's obviously matter of mastering process...tracks were all recorded pretty "healthy" and mixed allright...as I'm imagining it's to do with compression at the end and things like that....the song sounds great but I just want that lil bit of more balls....I understand that I'm probably not in posession of the gear that the CD I listened to was done with, but I hope that with some help I could improve a bit...
Your help would be great...thanx ppl :)
 
Use Soundforge (or any app, like cool edit pro that has these features), use the normalization processor and set it to average RMS (root-mean-square) and set it to use the loudness contour and prevent clipping (the 2 check boxes), set the left-most slider (the average loudness setting) to anywhere between -12 and -18 to get a fatter sound from the mix.

Note: be sure to click the "scan levels" button too...
 
hey..thnx man..I know about normalizing, but didn't pay attention to the "clipping prevention" I'll give it a go...thnx pinky...cheers mate
 
Roker1 said:
hey..thnx man..I know about normalizing, but didn't pay attention to the "clipping prevention" I'll give it a go...thnx pinky...cheers mate
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NP, it's not called "clipping prevention", but it is a dynamic compressor so it never clips (or does its best to NOT clip). I'm not at home now otherwise i'd tell you exactly what that setting is called.
 
YOU NEED 2 PEICES OF GEAR A COMPRESSER AND A LIMITER TO MAKE YOUR MIXES LARGER THEN LIFE. BEST IS A MULTI BAND COMPRESSER/LIMITER EITHER HARDWEAR OR SOFTWEAR TRY WAVES C4 OR IF YOU WANT A KILLER HARDWEAR DEVICE TRY THE BEHRINGER 9024 ($200) THATS THE RIGHT ANSWER NORMILIZING DOSENT MAKE ANYTHING SEEM LOUDER IT PULLS UP THE PEAKS THATS IT AND 90% OF THE TIME NORMILIZING IS NEVER USED ON A FINISHED STERO MIX EVER
 
All you need is a loudness maximizer such as the one that comes with Steinberg's Mastering suite. I had the same problem as you and the loudness maximizer plugin has solved it for me. Keep your wav's below the clipping mark then use the loudness maximizer plugin on the mixdown. Its simple to use and does just what you are looking for. It will bump up your wav peaks above the "line" and in some cases off the chart but without clipping and will give you more volume and power.
 
Dabluesman is right.

I use Waves' L1 or Timeworks Mastering Compressor. Both act as peak limiters and do exactly what you are trying to accomplish.
 
I get great results using normalization properly, I think you're all nutz for saying otherwise. It not only limits but "pumps" the sound to fill in dynamic voids (again, proper normalization is what makes a rich recording). A lot of the top producers use this technique nowadays, if done properly, sounds great and full. If you want to sound like the pros you have to do as they do, right?
 
chessrock said:
I use Waves' L1 or Timeworks Mastering Compressor. Both act as peak limiters and do exactly what you are trying to accomplish.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the Waves L1 and Sonic Timeworks MC incorporate functions which are sort of cousins to the normalization loudness contour Pinky talked about. But, unlike loudness contours, they selectively "redraw" just the parts of the waveform that would otherwise exceed the threshold and leave everything else alone. Of course, HOW this is done is everything. Both Waves and Sonic Timeworks have developed very sophisticated and musical methods of doing this – as long as you don’t push them too hard.

barefoot
 
Pinky said:
I get great results using normalization properly, I think you're all nutz for saying otherwise. It not only limits but "pumps" the sound to fill in dynamic voids (again, proper normalization is what makes a rich recording). A lot of the top producers use this technique nowadays, if done properly, sounds great and full. If you want to sound like the pros you have to do as they do, right?
Click to expand...

All normalization does is turn up the volume. It doesn't affect perceived loudness or fullness in anyway. You can get the exact same effect by bringing up the fader. From your first post it sounds like SF is calling their Limiting 'Normalization' but strictly speaking they are not the same thing.

The ONLY way to raise perceived volume is with compression, limiting and EQ.

And don't expect your mixes to ever be as loud as a commercial CD unless you have it mastered on the same gear.
 
Pinky said:
I get great results using normalization properly, I think you're all nutz for saying otherwise. It not only limits but "pumps" the sound to fill in dynamic voids (again, proper normalization is what makes a rich recording). A lot of the top producers use this technique nowadays, if done properly, sounds great and full. If you want to sound like the pros you have to do as they do, right?
Click to expand...

Whatever works for you. Personally, I doubt the pros are using the normalization function in Sound Forge. Some are using the L2 (cousin to the L1), while I would think the good ones are using the Universal Audio LA-2A, the 1176LN and similar toys out of most of our budget ranges.

But seriously, though, I don't doubt that it works for you, so screw what I or anyone else says in that case. :) Do what works.

Barefoot, I hear you on the idea of pushing the limiters too hard. I hear all these harsh nasties going on when I limit too hard with the L1. Use it with caution, and check carefully with headphones. I'm going to give away a secret: My drum tracks really like the Timeworks Mastering Compressor, particularly when I over-do it, so this is a pleasant exception to the "as long as you don't push it too hard" rule. ;)
 
I agree with Tex 100% about perceived loudness.

But perhaps what Pinky is talking about is objective loudness comparisons between different CD's. For instance, you play your CD on your system at a comfortable listening level, and then switch to a commercial CD which proceeds to blow out your speakers, windows, and eardrums before you can dive for the fader. Annoying isn't it?

While I never have used normalization, it might be useful to someone who has mixed a song leaving way too much headroom (like peaks at -12dB). In that case, maybe normalization would be useful to bring the song up closer to the level of a commercial CD, although as Tex points out, to change perceived (average) loudness, it will still require compression. Personally, I'd just remix the damn track at a better level. The final result will be superior.
 
thank you all guys..some really good ideas, some of which i've tried...but will keep working in the direction in which most of you are pointing..thank you...

Tax, I'm not expecting my mix to sound 100% like commercial CD..I just wanted to improve a bit


My 1st post said this in case you didnt read it all :D :D
I understand that I'm probably not in posession of the gear that the CD I listened to was done with, but I hope that with some help I could improve a bit...


thanx heaps guys!!!
 
A good step to start with on some instruments is a well adjusted expander to go with the compressor, to keep the noise level down..



Then SQUASCH IT wif Waves L1+ OMG!!! :D :eek:
 
Is it possible to see a little bit of clipping that doesn't effect the sound or is any clipping at all a bad thing? I use a db-l mastering limiter but I'm new to it. I'm wondering if when the mastering limiter is used, I'll still possibly see a little clipping but it won't hurt the sound or if I should not see any clipping at all?
 
timandjes said:
Is it possible to see a little bit of clipping that doesn't effect the sound or is any clipping at all a bad thing? I use a db-l mastering limiter but I'm new to it. I'm wondering if when the mastering limiter is used, I'll still possibly see a little clipping but it won't hurt the sound or if I should not see any clipping at all?
Click to expand...

I don't know if it's even possible to compress, limit, or "pump" without there being some degree of clipping, these different plugins and approaches only help in how much becomes evident/audible in the final mix. If you're sure you don't hear it, then you're probably fine.
 
timandjes said:

Is it possible to see a little bit of clipping that doesn't effect the sound or is any clipping at all a bad thing? I use a db-l mastering limiter but I'm new to it. I'm wondering if when the mastering limiter is used, I'll still possibly see a little clipping but it won't hurt the sound or if I should not see any clipping at all?
Click to expand...

Usually the red clip lights will illuminate somewhat before the onset of clipping, more like a warning that you are about to clip. So if you get a few transient red lights here and there and it still sounds fine, there is no need to panic. If the light is on most of the time, you should probably lower your levels a little no matter what you think you are hearing.

Some hardware and software incorporates "soft clipping" features, which gives you an even larger margin of forgiveness. That feature prevents you from getting a straight square wave until you clip it really hard.




Pinky said:


I don't know if it's even possible to compress, limit, or "pump" without there being some degree of clipping, these different plugins and approaches only help in how much becomes evident/audible in the final mix. If you're sure you don't hear it, then you're probably fine.
Click to expand...

OF COURSE it's possible to mix without clipping. The idea of using a compressor or limiter is so that you can lower the volume earlier in the chain to eliminate the clipping, and then raise it with make-up gain.

Naturally, you can't really fix clipping that was recorded at the input stage. But if it is elsewhere, it is important to examine every gain stage - it could be occuring within an EQ or Reverb plug-in or box, for instance. Just because the final output is well below clipping, doesn't mean that clipping isn't occuring earlier in the chain.
 
Good tips from LD.

In regards to clipping- Ignore your level meters and clip lights.
The meters on most home gear is horrible slow and innacurate. Use your ears, if you can't hear anything than your golden.

This is where headphones are handy for listening for small clicks and pops that you may not notice when listening on monitors.
 
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