how much of your snare sound should be coming from your overheads?

  • Thread starter Thread starter skiz
  • Start date Start date
if you are in a small room that's the main problem. comb filtering and low frequency build up are jacking up the sound that the mics capture.

Here are the things that have been successful for me in acheiving a nice snare crack in a small room.

[snip]

Let me know if this helps. :)

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but hey, nreece, thank you for all that information! I have a drum room right now with which I've had some similar issues. I've been wondering if I've deadened the room a bit too much, and I think I probably have. I've struggled with getting the snare sound bright and lively enough--and obviously don't want to go totally over the top with EQ (i.e. 10+ db high-shelf, etc...). I think I'll need less "absorption" and more "diffusion".

Also, I appreciate your suggestions for good drum mic preamps. Have you (or anyone) had any experience with the API 3124? I've had my eye (and ear) on this one for a while.
 
Hipskind,

I'm glad to help. I've been reading recording forums for years now and it's places like this that have helped me immensely. As for your room having too much absorbtion, It's quite possible that this is contributing to your lack of a quality snare drum sound. I made the same mistake myself when I built my jam room. I converted the 3rd stall of my garage into a small studio and treated the entire thing in fibrous sound board from Home Depot. It turned out to be way too dead. over time I've "livened" it up using pine boards. Pine is a good reflective source but still warm.
Back then the floor was covered in rugs which was further deadening my sound. Now days I only use a small rug, only big enough for my throne, kick, and hi-hat stand. This allows all my drums, especially snare, to sound more lively in the mix.
As for the API pre, I have never used one but would love to. I'm sure they are killer. Many many pro recording have been made with these. The new BFD acoustic drum module from FXpansion was tracked using API's and the sound is really good.
Despite not having first hand experience with the API pre's I will say this about pre's in general. They make a huge difference....I mean huge! Don't listen to people who say otherwise. I was using a Mackie 1604 board for years and was told that the preamps were good so I didn't think they were limiting my sound in any way. I was wrong. When I switched to the JLM TMP-8 I was blown away by the improvement in my sound, instantly...with no other changes to my other gear. good pre-amps help you transition from that typical small room crappy sound (muddy, woofy, inarticulate) to more of that spacious and dynamic sound that we all hear on the radio and want for our own recordings. Now days I only use my Mackie board for monitoring but it isn't in the signal path between my mics and recorder. it just adds to much low end and isn't very 3 dimensional.

If you could do 5 things that will make a dramatic improvement I'd say do these first:
1. get some good pre-amps (API's, JLM audio, focusrite Red5, Universal Audio, Neve, all make pre's in the $2k range that will make a huge difference. Personally I think the JLM TMP-8 is the best bang for your buck. It costs about $1,850 for 8 preamps. that's less than $250 per pre and they sound excellent. You can mic your entire kit. Check out jlmaudio.com. Joe Malone, the owner, builds custom mods of Neve consoles, API pres etc. and really knows his stuff. He will also chat with you personally by email. They are based in Australia so it takes about a week to a week and a half to get your order but it's worth it.)
2. remove some of the deadening in your room and add diffusion
3. use 1 overhead or rear mic, condenser, in omni mode vs. 2 spaced cardioids for overheads. go for more of a mono sound in a small room and keep your mic(s) lower to the ground as opposed to up high. the OMNI mode makes for a much better cymball sound and adds way more ambiance to your mix than cardioids. They also do not add low end frequency to your mix due to proximity effect.
4. run your final stereo drum mix back through the same preamps again after you've done all of your EQ and signal processing to liven it up...this is a huge key! A little compression here will also make your drums sound punchy.
5. tune your snare drum tighter than you might normally like to hear it. this will result in less low frequency being thrown around in your room. It might sound a little weird to your ears at first but, when you play back your recording it will sound fine. Also, don't deaden that snare too much with muffling or rings or things like that. those deadringers (small plastic ring 14 inches in diamter and about 1 1/2" wide) sound cool but don't record well in a small room. what I do is to take a deadringer and cut it so that it's only about 2-4 inches long and lay it on my snare head up next to the rim. this deadens the wild ass transients just slightly but otherwise leaves that open snare sound in tact. I've also had better luck with metal snares than wood in a small room.

Have fun.:)
 
Thanks man! I really appreciate all of your insight. I always suspected that good (really, really good) mic pres were a big ingredient to a good drum sound, even when some people told me otherwise. Right now I'm in the middle of a home purchase, so I'm afraid the APIs will have to wait...:(

Thanks again.
-Tom
 
hey nreece,

just wanted to ask what you thought of the set up im using,

im recording digitally with a presonus firepod in cubase. im using a shure beta52a on the kick, 2 marshall MXL-604s as stereo overheads, and an audix I-5 on the snare and audix I-5 on the batter side of the kick for more attack when using double pedal.

yeah the room im recording in isnt huge and is carpeted and also been deadened a bit. i took the pads i had on the walls down and its helped a lot but still strugglin a bit. maybe because i left the pads on the roof up? My friends cottage has recently become available and the main room in it is pretty large and has tiled floors and just a normal ceiling. How do you think this room will do? i duno about the tiled floors i would prefer them to be wood but just wanted to see what you thought of this.

also if i did record in the tiled room, where abouts in the room would be good to set the kit up? in the middle? closer to a wall? what do you think?

any way just wanted to see what you thought of this.
 
Try a "snare mic" test.

Take a bunch of mics and set them up all around the snare. On the edge, hanging over it in the middle, on the shell, etc.

Listen to them all, find the best one.

I was forever using a standard position that I'd seen so many places that I just took for granted as being "correct" of an inch or so above the rim pointed towards the middle. I too was getting more snare out of the overheads and just figured I'd use the close mic to get the pop sound.

But then after doing this test, I found that literally hanging the mic above the middle of the snare 1 or 2 inches got a huge, great sound. Never mind the whole "impossible to actually hit the drum like this." ;P From there I just found a good spot.

Also look up the recorderman/glyn johns setup. Hanging your overhead directly over the snare a few feet, with your other overhead the same distance away over the drummers shoulder pointed at the snare, with a direct snare mic getting those high pops.... powerful.
 
skiz,

I would try the bigger room with the tile floor. Just use enough rugs to keep your kit from sliding away. as for the kit placement, i think you'll find that the mic placement is more critical. set up your kit so that when you place your OH's, the mics end up in the center of the room...not the kit. This will get you a better sound. you may need to hang a blanket or rug on the wall in front of the kick. If your mics have a pattern selector, try them in omni mode for more ambiance. also, try using just one OH mic instead of two. In a small room I find this works better. you can still get a good stereo mix by panning this OH to like 10-11 oclock and your top snare mic at like 1-2 oclock. then pan your stereo reverb to like 9 and 3 and then pan your toms to like 8 and 4 oclock. Also, if you are still having trouble getting a good sound, try setting up those OH mics down low and behind the kit as opposed to up high. This works better with an 8 foot ceiling. four feet off the floor, behind you, pointed at the snare yeilds a pretty good sound. if you do use two OH's, keep them fairly close together. 18" apart will still get you a good stereo image and will result in far less phase problems. Remeber, try to get these mics as close to the center of the room as possible. have fun.
 
ok cool nreece thanks a lot ill give it a try.

so you reckon the overheads coming from behind can be quite nice?

one of the rooms in the cottage is a little smaller than the large main room, its still tiled, but it has a high thatched roof thats not flat. what do you think of this room?

if i went into the two rooms and clapped, what would i be looking for in the sound and decay in regards to good or bad sound
 
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